Re: [Classicrendezvous] B15 vs. B17

(Example: Framebuilding:Brazing Technique)

From: "Donald Dundee" <rebour@hotmail.com>
To: jfbender@umich.edu, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [Classicrendezvous] B15 vs. B17
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 08:44:47 EST


Again, I will re-assert. According to Brooks:

B15 Saddles production was discontinued in 1971. Just because you have one on a 1973 bike does not mean that the saddle was produced in that year. To make that assertion is fatally flawed in vintage cycle circles. It is quite frequent to see a bike of later vintage outrfitted with earlier components - especially lower end bikes such as the Schwinn you mention.

Brooks B15 saddles were made of much lowere grade leather than B17's. Lower grade not only meaning THINNER (in most cases - I say MOST - a reinforcement patch was factory applied to make up for the difference), but also lower in quality of surface. Hudes selected for B15 production runs were often rejected from the B17 run due surface imperfections (pock marks, etc).

This information is pretty well known to most in the know.

Over and out.

Ken Denny Boston, MA


>From: Joseph Bender-Zanoni <jfbender@umich.edu>
>To: "Donald Dundee" <rebour@hotmail.com>, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: Re: [Classicrendezvous] B15 vs. B17
>Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:44:20 -0800
>
>Ken and listers,
>
>In the first place, lets make sure it is understood that I said
>questionable, not wrong. That is questionable in the sense of being subject
>to question. I simply said that some of the assertions did not hold true
>for the B-15s I own. My purpose was to get some people to measure their
>saddles!
>
>I think it is reasonable and settled that the B-15s are more variable. That
>certainly makes sense based on what Chuck pointed out, the B-17 having
>select leather and the B-15 not.
>
>The assertions I questioned exactly were:
>
>"the leather used was thinner"
>
>"normally used an under patch"
>
>"produced until 1971"
>
>I simply presented measured data from a sample of 4 B-15s: thick leather
>around 5mm thick including one with leather 5.8mm thick, no under patches
>and at least 2 from bikes sold post 1971. That data certainly places these
>three assertions in the category of being subject to question.
>
>You didn't say anything about chamfering, I did based on my sample.
>Evidently it is not simple.
>
>As to the crooked B-17, it indicates that the selection process was
>certainly subject to mistakes. In this case, a piece of leather that varied
>a millimeter from one flap to the other was used in the select saddle. Over
>the years that resulted in a crooked saddle. Since the topic is comparing
>the two saddles, it would seem meaningful that the quality ranges can
>overlap and a good B-15 can be better than a bad B-17.
>
>Joe
>
>
>A readAt 09:38 AM 10/30/00 EST, Donald Dundee wrote:
> >"a number of assertions that are questionable"..... Well, what are they?
> >
> >My information comes from not only observations over 25 years of
>collecting,
> >but from George Flegg, shop foreman at Brooks for over 50 years, and a
>close
> >friend of mine. I suppose if I did an averaging of thicknesses of the
>B15's
> >in my collection, I would find the following to be true:
> >
> >1) The B15 is of thinner leather, on avearge, than the B17.
> >2) The consistency of the B15 is highly variable, with thickness
> >measurements running all over the map.
> >3) The B15, for the most part, have under-reinforcements when cut from a
> >thin hide, which is the most common.
> >4) there may be examples of B17 with this reinforcement. There may be
> >examples of B15 without it.
> >
> >
> >Furthermore, who said anything about chamfering. I could give you a
>history
> >of that technique, but I won't. But just for your information, there was
>a
> >period when both B17 and B15 were tooled instead of chamfered, and there
> >was a period when both were chamfered.
> >
> >I still don't understant your point about your crooked saddle? What is
>the
> >relevency?
> >
> >Ken denny
> >Boston, MA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: Joseph Bender-Zanoni <jfbender@umich.edu>
> >>To: "Donald Dundee" <rebour@hotmail.com>, CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com,
> >>moos@penn.com, TheLocalSpoke@bigfoot.com
> >>CC: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> >>Subject: Re: [Classicrendezvous] B15 vs. B17
> >>Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 22:14:50 -0700
> >>
> >>I have to say that the post below from a few days ago has a number of
> >>assertions that are questionable.
> >>
> >>Quickly measuring the 10 or so Brooks B-15s, B-17s, Pros and Swallows
>that
> >>I have, the average leather thickness at the flaps is typically 5mm plus
>or
> >>minus .5mm. Of the three B-15s in the sample, none are thinner than the
> >>average and in fact, the thickest leather on a Brooks saddle I own is a
> >>B-15 at about 5.8mm.
> >>
> >>As to quality I have one B-17 Champion Narrow that is at 5.5mm on the
>right
> >>flap and 4.5mm at the left. Guess what- this 1964 saddle is pretty
>crooked
> >>over the years.
> >>
> >>None of my B-15s have an under patch. I have a Lycette Swallow with an
> >>under patch but it has 5mm "flaps" too.
> >>
> >>Also the B-15s and Swallows are not chamfered.
> >>
> >>I agree about the steel rivets.
> >>
> >>It also seems to me that many Schwinns (Sport Tourers and Super Sports)
> >>came with B-15s well after 1971. Of course Schwinn may have held a large
> >>inventory. Who knows how many sets of Nervex lugs they bought in advance
>of
> >>their immediate needs.
> >>
> >>Maybe the B-15 was intended as an OEM variant? Does anyone on the list
> >>remember buying one new that wasn't part of a bike?
> >>
> >>After all that, and all those Brooks saddles I seem to own, I am still
>not
> >>a Brooks aficianado and Ideale has never worked for me at all. I am
>coming
> >>to realize that the Narrows and especially the Swallows fit me better.
>On
> >>the other hand, Larry Strung has a 50's Brooks sprinting saddle so
>narrow
> >>that it only fits, as the Vermonters say, where the sun don't shine.
> >>
> >>Joe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>MyAt 11:35 AM 10/27/00 EDT, Donald Dundee wrote:
> >> >Well, sort of. Firstly, a comment about the B15 line vs the B17 line.
>The
> >> >B15 line of Saddles, which included the B15 Standard, narrow and
>Swallow,
> >> >was a lesser grade saddle than the B17. The leather used was thinner
>and
> >> >generally rejected for inclusion in the B17 line. B15's normally
>employed
> >>a
> >> >reinforcement under-patch which was intended to strengthen the
> >>saddle.This
> >> >patch was not used on the B15 Swallow. Finally, perhaps teh most
> >> >distinguishing feature of B15's was that they used hollow steel
>rivets.
> >>You
> >> >can tell by the fact that they are split on the underside.
> >> >The B15 line was produced until 1971, when it was discontinued for
> >>economic
> >> >reasons within the company.
> >> >
> >> >The B15 Swallow had cutaway sides that were interconnected underneath
>by
> >>a
> >> >riveted plate. The B17 Swallow, which had a similar profile to teh
>B15,
> >>and
> >> >utilized the same hardware, was an extremely well-crafted saddle. Made
>of
> >> >heavier leather, it employed an integral stiffener wire, hand stitched
> >> >within the side flaps, and a chrome-plated fastening plate on the
> >>underside.
> >> >This model was produced until 1970/71, to the best of my knowledge,
>but
> >> >according to george flegg, shop foreman at Brooks, it was made on a
>few
> >> >occasions subsequent to 1971 on special order.
> >> >
> >> >Both B17 and B15 lines were available in Black or Brown. Earlier
>versions
> >>of
> >> >the B17 Swallow were available with optional "dull" finish. Also,
>earlier
> >> >versions of the B17 swallow normally used black rails, with chrome
>rails
> >> >optional.
> >> >
> >> >There were also lightweight versions of the B17 Swallow (model B57)
>which
> >> >employed stainless steel rails and aluminum cantleplate. these are
>quite
> >> >rare as bi-metallic corossion often occured at the cantleplate/rail
> >> >location, causing fatigue failure.
> >> >
> >> >My 1970 WB Hurlow shown at Lars Anderson this past season was equipped
> >>with
> >> >a B17 Swallow with shiny black finish. My 1950's Ephgrave had an
>earlier
> >> >version of the B17 Swallow with optional dull finish, oval embossed
>logo,
> >> >and early nameplate.
> >> >
> >> >The last reiteration of the Swallow was in response to demand and did
>not
> >> >hold a candle to earlier versions. This model, produced from the late
> >>80's
> >> >through mid 90's, had the side flaps riveted to an arch-shaped, black
> >> >enameled, steel plate which connected the side flaps together with
> >>exposed
> >> >copper rivets. The production of this saddle had nothing to do with
>Mike
> >> >Kone or Bicycle Classics, but rather the company's interest in
> >> >retro-introducing the item. It fell short of expectations.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>From: Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com>
> >> >>To: Jerry Moos <moos@penn.com>, Jeff Slotkin
><TheLocalSpoke@bigfoot.com>
> >> >>CC: Classic Rendezvous <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> >> >>Subject: Re: [Classicrendezvous] B15 vs. B17
> >> >>Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:59:56 -0400
> >> >>
> >> >>Jerry Moos wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>I have a similar question, which Sheldon can certainly answer, but
> >>others
> >> >>>may also know. Was the Swallow made up until the shutdown? Sheldon
> >>had
> >> >>>them on his site, but I didn't find them offered by any other
>vendors.
> >> >>>Were Sheldon's NOS? Also, is the Swallow technically a variation of
> >>the
> >> >>B-17? (I think I remember hearing references to a "B-17 Swallow")
> >> >>
> >> >>In the 1960s, there were both B15 and B17 Swallows, and lots of other
> >> >>models that no longer exist. Some time in the late'60s, I believe,
> >> >>there was a fire at Brooks, which put them out of action for quite a
> >> >>while.
> >> >>
> >> >>When they got back up on their feet, it was with a much reduced
> >> >>product line. They gave up on their extensive line of touring bags,
> >> >>leaving that market to Carradice and others. The Swallow was one of
> >> >>the models that was discontinued at that time, and I think the whole
> >> >>B15 line went out then as well.
> >> >>
> >> >>The prices of used Swallows got so high (I've heard of Japanese
> >> >>collectors paying as much as $400 for them) that they were prevailed
> >> >>upon to re-introduce the model sometime in the mid '90s. I think
> >> >>Mike Kone may have had something to do with this. The recent
> >> >>Swallows have no reference to B17/B15.
> >> >>
> >> >>Sheldon "About To Leave For Work On One Of My Swallows" Brown
> >> >>Newtonville, Massachusetts
> >> >>+--------------------------------------+
> >> >>| A Nader vote is a Republican vote! |
> >> >>+--------------------------------------+
> >> >> Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
> >> >>Phone 617-244-9772, 617-244-1040, FAX 617-244-1041
> >> >> http://harriscyclery.com
> >> >> Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
> >> >> http://captainbike.com
> >> >> Useful articles about bicycles and cycling
> >> >> http://sheldonbrown.com
> >> >>
> >> >>_______________________________________________
> >> >
> >>
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> >>
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