Dale, you of course, as supreme commander, can make any rule you want, but maybe for new and old members alike, you should clarify the rules about exposing dishonest characters. My understanding is that we should avoid personal attacks based on second hand evidence and hearsay. BUT it was my understanding that if someone had personal first hand evidence of dishonest dealings, it was appropriate to warn others. i.e. if a person received payment for goods, then failed to deliver them, or sold a clearly fraudulent Hetchins, Cinelli, etc., and when confronted with the evidence refused to buy back the bike, and if the poster had personally been on the other side of these dealings, then warning others would be considered a service to the list, not "flaming". For example, the warnings about Cabbagetown Cycles and Berthouds that never arrived may have saved members a lot of grief.
Merry Christmas
Jerry Moos
OROBOYZ@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 12/24/00 6:48:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> richardsachs@juno.com writes:
>
> << re you out there Harry? Because it's crooks like you that will kill this
> art-form!
>
> my curiousity has peaked... who is 'harry'??? >>
>
> I have just written to new guy on the block, Cliv, that we do not want not to
> slam people on this list..
>
> Harry Butler is older (in his 80s) old bike collector/seller who is
> frequently referred to by some UK guys and a few USA folk as being a bit
> sneaky in his dealings with the bikes and parts he sells. Because he, nor
> friends and acquaintances are available to put up any defense, I told Cliv is
> was not cool to zing Mr. Butler.
>
> I have no idea if Butler is on the up and up, but I personally bought a set
> of 1960s Magnum Opus lugs maybe two-three years ago from him and they were
> exactly that. I think it is entirely possible that he sold parts to people
> who then made bikes of them... Whether someone along the line added a set of
> Hetchins decals to one of these Hetchins lugged frames is possible but no one
> has offered any proof of that. I saw at Brian Baylis' shop a bike made with
> these lugs (He didn't make it, he was trying to fix it!) and it was a mess,
> very poorly built.. but it still was not being presented as a "Hetchins."
>
> I also question whether there is some vast conspiracy to make Hetchins fakes
> at all. The prices they sell for versus the trouble one would have to go to
> is not much incentive! Just as there are Windsors with Cinelli decals and
> who knows what else, I don't think it is a big deal. I would love to hear
> first person factual reports to the contrary and not "I heard of a guy who
> knew a guy who had a fake Hetchins."
>
> Just my two centavos,
> Dale Brown