I absolutely agree, there are many ingenious people I have meet who have been able to make up the greatest things for very little money. It is also the case that this is one of the reasons that many people are attracted to framebuilding because on a limited basis it can be done with minimal tooling at a low cost.
On the other hand, Many would be framebuilders totally underestimate the costs of doing business and jump in with there eyes closed. I did this, I was very naive. In order for most framebuilders to make a living today there is a minimum amount of production that needs to occur. This often necessitates the use of multiple fixturing, milling machines or multiple drill press, welders etc. This stuff is expensive and you can't always hunt down the super deal. A modern Chinese mill is 3000.00, tooling can run the same. Decent TIG welders can run 3000-5000K. A great premanfactured fixture 2000-4000. Alignment tables 500-3500. Just examples.
I didn't go and spend 20,000 all at once but if you had to duplicate everything that I have at this point, it would run about that.
On a different note, I just love when I get to see a customer ride there new bike for the first time. It really is a great feeling. I miss it when I have to send a bike to another state and miss that experience. Often though I will get a Christmas card or something even much later telling me how much they still love there bike, that's the best.
Sincerely, David Bohm Bohemian
----- Original Message ----- From: Mark A. Perkins To: davebohm@azstarnet.com Cc: moos@penn.com ; OROBOYZ@aol.com ; classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [CR]Re: modern frame manufacturing costs
Although I have not attempted to go into the frame building business totally, and at present I don't have a work shop at all, I would like to point out that a person can tool up to build framesets for far less than the $20,000.00 mentioned.
I first went to the local junior college and took a gas welding course, which I completed at the top of my class. Then I followed that up with a 2-yr./4-semester course in machine shop, during which I built my own design adjustable fork fixture, and also finished near the top of the class. Then, after getting work as a machinist, I designed and built my frame fixtures based on those used by another builder I had met a few years earlier (Dan Anderson - Mtn. View, CA). The labor was all my own, and in my spare time, so I don't count it. The materials used were mostly from the scrap bins at work, so there was very little expense there. And, my system works! Next, I would like to build a pedal-powered tube mitering machine, using a couple of Schwinn Deluxe Exercisers that I picked up for free. Up to this point it's been a hobby for me, but I hope that someday I will be building more framesets for other people.
The first two, of the five frames I have built to date, were built using fixtures owned by my good friend John Harrington (now of Easton Aluminum), in his garage while I was renting a room from him in '84. After that I finished building my own fixtures and built the remaining 3 bike frames from '89 thru '92. I also found a local company that set me up with the silk screens so that I can now make my own water-transfer decals, and all it cost me is time and the basic screen frames and printing materials.
As I mentioned earlier, I still own and ride three of these bikes (#'s 1,3 & 5), and they are really my favorites since they were built to fit me based on 10 to 20 years of riding other builder's frames and knowing what suited me best. The other two frames were for other people, and one has been run over by a Lincoln (the rider escaped with only scratches and bruises), and was a total loss. The other is a 69cm road frame, black w/chrome lugs, stays and forks. And it's owner, who never had a bike that fit his 6' 7" body, is a very satisfied customer. And through the experience of building his bike I experienced something I didn't expect. There is no experience that compares to seeing the excited, happy, smiling face of a satisfied customer who has just returned from his first spin around the neighborhood on his new custom bicycle (I not only built the frame, I assebled it for him too).
I did all of this because I had never been able to afford the expense of a true custom built frameset, but I did (and do) have the utmost confidence in my mechanical skills, and my knowledge of bicycle frame design. Now I have a difficult time when it comes to purchasing a new frameset because I know I can make one myself for less. At present, I would rather spend my $$ on a home with a garage/shop space, so that I can continue experiencing that look of total satisfaction in the customer's faces.
Actually, I now have a B.S. degree in Industrial Technology, Computer Aided Design & Manufacturing, and have worked as a CAD draftsman for the past 8 years, and am looking for a new job in that field first. Then I can continue building frames on the side.
Not really trying to toot my own horn here, I just got a little carried away making my point.
On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:00:59 -0700 "dave bohm" <davebohm@azstarnet.com>
writes:
> Mercian frame pricing may be a fluke. In reality, the cost of
> materials alone to build a frame for most builders in the US may
> approach
> $200. Add the cost of paint if not done in house, and you're up
> to $ 325
> or more. Now factor in wages for half a weeks work, and overhead,
> and its
> easy to see why a good frame needs to wholesale for $600 to $700
> for a
> company to break even. Add in a mark-up for the dealer, and you're
> up to
> $1,000 just to play ball.
>
>
> It is true that most of the products we buy have to be
> produced at a very low price in order to give adequate markups in
> our retail society. This may be a little off topic but it helps to
> know what a small framebuilder spends producing a bicycle. It will
> give you more of an appreciation for the amazing prices that some
> manufacturers can achieve with the efficiency of mass production.
> Now realize I am just a small guy and don't have the ability to
> purchase material is quantity, I can't build up a bunch of
> subassemblies to speed up production but here are just some of the
> general costs involved.
>
> 1. Go out and drop 20,000 on tooling, fixturing, machinery,
> welders, computer etc. Realized that modern fixtures (jigs) and
> other apparatus are usually far superior to those of twenty plus
> years ago.
>
> 2. Tubing- 100-200 for a complete tube set.
>
> 3. lugs $56, drop-outs $40, B.B $35, fork parts $45, fork
> crown $25, (tiddily bits) $10.00, Silver $25
>
> 4. Disposables- sandpaper, drill bits, saw blades, tool wear,
> occasional tool breakage, tool maintenance, etc. $100.00
>
> 5. Rent, liability insurance, electricity, two telephones, web
> site, telephone book, minimal advertising, swap meets, travel etc
> (I have a low production so these costs are high per unit)
> 300.00
>
> 6. Paint- All I can say on this one is you get what you pay for.
> 300.00 min
>
> So now we have a grand total of 1136.00.
>
> And that is without labor, jeez, I'm getting depressed!
>
> What I am trying to show here is what a great deal bicycle frames
> are in general, In my mind the Heron is excellent, Don't even know
> how Mercian does it, amazing. But I have to think that until the
> general cycling public realizes that these frames are probably the
> best value in sports equipment we will continue to see a thinning of
> the bikes we love and a proliferation of TIG welded cookie cutter
> frames.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> David Bohm
> Bohemian Bicycles
>
>
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