Re: [CR]Craft vs. Machine building

(Example: Racing:Jean Robic)

Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:44:09 -0800
From: "Brian Baylis" <rocklube@adnc.com>
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [CR]Craft vs. Machine building
References: <200103021530.f22FUPA29005@troi.cc.rochester.edu>


Douglas,

The questions you ask about "carosel" brazing machines cover only a fraction of the aspects that one could consider regarding frames and how they're made. I would like to lay out the whole picture piece by piece if possible. I could explain about different brazing techniques like hearth brazing, "free brazing", jig brazing, brass and silver brazing, pinning and tack brazing, etc. Since I've been thinking about the possibility of such an endevor I have come to realize that there would be a tremendous amount of information included in this project. It would have to be done in "chapters" over a period of time. I would like to do it; I have thought about writing a book on the topic. I would just as soon leak it out a little at a time here if people are interested. Eventually a detailed documentary film about the process will be produced which will do as good or better than a book. That's why the seminar is a good idea, seeing is better than reading about it by a considerable amount when it comes to passing on framebuilding techniques.

OK, time to expose my choice. I think a Confente frame would an excellent choice, not only timely but a good example of a high quality frame that there is much "mystery" about. Like I mentioned to someone privately, I'm looking I can give praise to, not something to critisise and tear apart. Marios work fills the bill well also because there are some features that appear on no other frame. They are useful to use in demonstrating how to evaluate the practicality and creativeness of these kind of features, and also how to recognize them. I watched Mario braze frames and I can tell you about his techniques as compared to several other top names I watched work like Dave Mounton and Dave Tesch. The differences are amazing!

I'm a very fair and neutral person in these matters. I'm sure Mario would not have his feelings hurt my what I would have to say, therefore no one else should either. I approach everything logically and with reason. I speak in laymans terms (with a little framebuilder talk thrown in occassionally) and stick to that which is practical. I think it would be entertaining and educational, and probably a great warm up for the seminar.

I will submit a preface and an outline of the topics I will cover in detail throughout the discussion. It may take a few days to get it together.

My .02 regarding the recent list changes. I am not in favor of abuse of any listmember in the form of name calling or accussations involving blurting out inapproiate information. I do believe in free speech and free expression of ideas. I'm saddened by the recent events; but mainly because I enjoy the spontanious and "real time" pace of the conversations and discussions. The moderating slows the flow of ideas to that of a chessmatch conducted through the mail. I'm having a hard time with that. I would prefer that we all "just get along". Personally I don't mind a little "cold war" activity amongst listmembers as long as it's civil and everything is based on truth and facts. Making up lies doesn't work either, because sooner or later the namecalling and ugly parts follow either because someone gets offended, or the other party becomes frustrated. I know we're all human, but it would be neat if we could have our cake and eat it too. Civility and freedom would be my choice.

Brian Baylis
>
> Classicists,
>
> I think all framebuilders I have spoken with agree that modern
> cast lugs and the quality of tubing nowadays is indeed an improvement
> over what was made in the early classic lightweight era. It strikes
> me as ironic that now that technology can create the best materials for
> lugged steel bikes we have ever seen, what we have instead are toothpaste
> TIGed aluminum...
> That said, I confess to riding techno-zoot bikes and liking them, though
> I have clear, reality-driven everyday preferences for things classic.
> But all that said, have a look here if you have patience for
> the download (or a cable internet connection that makes this come
> right up...spoiled me): http://www.bicycleworldusa.com/video_01/default.htm
>
> Here, at Bicycle World USA's site, you will find a series of videos
> featuring Colnago bicycles---the only ones this shop sells. In the
> particular video I have in mind you will see a steel bike placed
> on a machine that "pre-heats" the welds, leaving them glowing as
> it turns to the human welder who finishes them off.
> One wonders why Colnago/BW-USA thinks that this is something
> they would like to _show_ people: assembly-line, quasi-automated
> production for the world's "finest bicycles." Where is the craft
> left in this? I spoke with Grant about this a few days ago
> and he mentioned that he knew the machine, the company that made
> it for Colnago, and that other Italian makers apparently use it as well.
> I have no expertise or qualification to comment on the merits
> of this process but the whole matter defies my more romantic
> visions of Sachs, Baylis, Bohm, et.al.(short list) enacting
> their careful craft. What might have Confente thought of this?
> (rhetorical, of course)
> Perhaps the better cast lugs and modern tubes make this
> assembly-line process okay for building straight, functionally
> okay bicycles, but it is sure ugly to my eye.
> I don't mean to disparage modern Colnagos (though I share
> Steven Sheffield's suggestion in reply to Brian's Private View),
> but Colnago must think that this "heights of technology"
> presentation is obviously meant to inspire us.
> I doubt that production lugged steel in America (Serotta, Waterford,
> any others?) would think this is inspiring to potential buyers.
>
> Classic content question: Were there any production line style
> machines making bikes in the era of our interests?
>
> trying to stay on mission here, but darn curious what
> others think of old style building techniques in contrast to these
> modern ways,
> Douglas Brooks
> snowy, snowy today Canandaigua, NY