RE: RE: Re: [CR]Pinnicle of the vintage lightweight era?

(Example: Bike Shops)

Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:23:16 -0800
To: "stevens" <>,,
From: "Joseph Bender-Zanoni" <>
Subject: RE: RE: Re: [CR]Pinnicle of the vintage lightweight era?
In-Reply-To: <>

This casting of a blank lug, then hand filing is a very old way to make an artisan bike. The Brampton lugs as found on BSAs (and I presume lots of other everyday British bikes) were reworked to make the pretty lugs on Pop Brennans and early Paramounts. Lots of work though as these were rough lugs by today's standards.


At 02:59 PM 3/23/01 -0800, stevens wrote:
>I don't think you understand.
>Rivendell lugs are cast as finished lugs ... they don't need
>any handwork (or very little, in any case) to look nice.
>Can't someone have very plain, ordinary lug blanks cast in the
>style of the old stamped lug blanks, which would essentailly
>require the artisans to handfile the lugs for individual bikes,
>creating the potential for each frame to be unique?
>Best of both worlds ... or is it somehow unworkable?
>>--- Original Message ---
>>From: "Mark Petry" <>
>>To: "stevens" <>, <>
>>Date: 3/23/01 2:31:06 PM
>>Of course it can! Rivendells use investment casting. But the
>>skills - tube mitering, filing, finishing, etc, AND ALL DONE
>>FASHIONED WAY without die grinders, power files, and spiffy
>tooling like
>>that fancy mitering / milling machine like Tim Isaacs had that
>can finish a
>>top tube / seat tube joint, in 30 sec, with pneumatic clamps
>etc etc. ...
>>are only in use by a few people in the world, probably less
>than 10.
>>I think what Richard is arguing is that classic frames, built
>the old
>>fashioned way, stopped being produced in the early 70s and are
>>essentially craft built, and the real artisianship is now done
>in some
>>factory in China (which is where Riv lugs come from).
>>This happened because of the demands imposed by a growing market,
>>margins, and the necessity to support a marketing department
>>-----Original Message-----
>>[]On Behalf Of stevens
>>Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 2:12 PM
>>Subject: RE: Re: [CR]Pinnicle of the vintage lightweight era?
>>But can't an investment cast lugset still be filed and indiviualized
>>just as a stamped lugset would be? Couldn't a builder design
>>a blank lugset and have it cast (which is supposed to make for
>>a stronger lugset as well, no?) and then file each individual
>>blank the same way he might file a stamped lugset?
>>>--- Original Message ---
>>>From: Richard M Sachs <>
>>>Date: 3/23/01 10:49:36 AM
>>>On Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:32:39 -0800 writes:
>>>What does everybody think the pinnicle of the vintage lightweight
>>>era might be?
>>>>>>during the mid 70s, as the 'investment cast' era was being
>>> ushered in, bicycles would begin to lose their soul.
>>> the guise of new/improved/better/etc., the frame makers
>>> sold the bill that cast pieces advanced the quality
>>the frame.
>>> in truth, particularly in that era, all that cast lugs,
>>> brake briges, plug-in dropouts, and other similar parts
>>> was reduce the handwork involved to produce a finely
>>> frame. prior to that, it was a thousand little subconscious
>>> that occured by each framebuilder every single time
>>> or a sequence was carried out. intuition. experience.
>>training. it
>>> matters not what you call it. it was needed to build
>>frames then.
>>> when the little parts started coming from foundries
>>> houses, most of the decisions regarding interfernce
>>> aesthetics, etc., were taken out of the hands of the
>>> and susequently were made by mold-makers. in time, all
>>one would
>>> need to build a frame would be tubing and torches. the
>>> of learning 'how to make frames' versus 'assembling
>>> spell the end of the classic bike as we CR listmembers
>>define it.
>>> it might be easier to state that many feel that pre-fab,
>>> are 'imitaion art'. i believe this is so. anything that
>>can be
>>> by anyone or used by anyone cannot be defined as 'classic'.
>>> please don't read too much in to this; i'm not comparing
>>> nor saying 'us versus them'. i'm just answering doland's
>>> e-RICHIE