Re: [CR]Pinnicle of the vintage lightweight era? Gilbert's Longish, duh!

(Example: Framebuilders:Jack Taylor)

From: <CYCLESTORE@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 02:05:43 EST
Subject: Re: [CR]Pinnicle of the vintage lightweight era? Gilbert's Longish, duh!
To: feldmanbike@home.com, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org


Ok I have to weigh in somehow,

The question class is what is the pinnacle of the vintage, lightweight era? Sorry two opposites attract! But...Vintage can mean lightweight and Lightweight can mean vintage but Lightweight and Vintage do not always go together.

First Vintage, Define It: Before what, Older Than, Equipped with or without; very confusing. The CR list has always as I see it (some see it different) a showcase and forum for the performance bicycle enthusiast (We vary a lot in taste and culture) of many stripes from time be gone (but not totally). A genuine celebration of craft and craftsmanship. Even Frame Building list members Mr. Sachs and Baylis; all the while having built many fabulous rides for themselves and many others, have always lusted or acquired unique bicycles for themselves (Sachs- older Masi and Baylis-Lust for Herse or others). These are true aficionado's, they appreciate and care about their work, their peers and their craft new and old. Remarkable. You think the head of GM drives a Jaguar or Rolls; not likely. Vintage is considered by MR. Dale Brown as the period (Dale Correct me) as mid 80's and before with a little bit of a twist for interest. This may not be arbitrary but reflects a time Beyond the Classic Cruisers of the 30's-60's and before the world of Index, STI, ATB's, nylon lycra sublimated Jersies, Skinsuits, Aero Craziness, Most Clipless Pedals, The Dominance of Alternative Materials, Hard Shell Helmets, ad maybe even for some lightweight clincher tires! Wow! Some people mentioned Mario Confente as the change in the classic era because he may have(?) introduced the first investment cast lugs but I think the man of the century would have to be the former hour record holder none other than Franseco Moser. I don't remember his date but anything after his record must march past the vintage classic lightweight era protocols by Dale Brown (chairman of the whoever/whatever committee) to be regarded as official vintage lightweight. Suggestions, anybody with me...Don't stone again...ouch....

Who is to say a Teledyne Titan, Exxon Graftek or Vitus 979 is not classic. They are very lightweight, lugged (not the Titan), attractive in their own way (liked the Vitus and Sean Kelly Liked Toestraps) and gave a high performance ride with many victories to their credit. The era is correct of course but one could say these bikes were way ahead of their time and not vintage. Some of these bikes could be introduced today with little modification and could sell well 25 years after introduction. Why not buy a trusted Teledyne (I have one of dem waterpicks and it's good enough to clean my Mt. Blanc so I trust them guys) over a Litespeed (young upstart) when you can have many decades of Aerospace experience in the engineering of your next bike?

As Forrest used to say "Vintage is as Vintage Does" and "life is like an old box of lugs, you never know what you are goin to git."

On the Lightweight Topic: Very hard to draw the line here. I see a lot of mention of it was Reynolds 753 or not that, it went too far when 753 came around. It could be argued that bikes have not really improved much since the mid to late 70's in weight and maybe actual function.

But Features, number of gears, ease of shifting and braking, convenience, tire reliability; well some things have gotten a little better. Actual real performance and weight have improved very little.

Downside of the modern era: Lots more parts wear out sooner, sloppy chains, derailluers, unreliable shifters, finicky adjustments, Scandium frames crack pretty quick (among others), 3 year warranty's of frames, delamination,quick release dropouts(!), quick release paint (a Problem in the old days too), parts availability and compatibility suck compared to many of the old days.

Again what is lightweight, Very Subjective: My Rene Herse fully decked out must weight 36 lbs or more and it has a 531c decal on it! I have bottom line Raleigh 3 speeds that weigh less (also considered by some as vintage lightweight on the list) but has anyone bought a Paramount from Schwinn and respect them and their opinion? The Schwinn Varsity is called lightweight in all Schwinn literature as I recall and it tips the scale dead on at 38 lbs. As I recall my 36lbs Rene Herse rode a lot better than a Varsity but of course the Herse is French.

I feel the lightweight bikes (?) from the 50's (and before) have more in common with modern and classic (70-80's) vintage bikes than most people will admit and should fall under this category. There were many internally geared bikes from Britain that were very lightweight and high performance but had internal gears. Many racers of the era thought anyone without a fixed racing setup was a bit of a woos but time changed them.

To Mr Feldman, On your quality vs country topic below. I have seen very high quality bikes from every industrialized country and it seems that I see no quality or craftsmanship advantage from any one country (including, USA Japan etc) for any significant period of time in history. We in this country despite it's size and scope are very limited by what we are exposed to simply by what was imported and what Americans could be persuaded to pay (from a generally non cycling culture) for the product. This has certainly limited us in our understanding of the unique variances and in this subject. To say who makes the best quality bicycles is like stating who makes the best cars, or toasters for that matter, which country is it. Everyone might have an opinion but it comes down to what is best for whom and in country's and bicycles it matters little though trends and styles do exist. Wait till you see some of my new imports from the small country of Andorra, sensational!!!

I've noticed that a lot of this thread focusses on Vintage lightweight and seems to mention only racing bikes with 531/753/Columbus etc and Campagnolo /Nr SR parts which are common on upper end racing bikes sold in small numbers. Sophisticated touring and utility machines may not be the pinnacle of the TDF world but some touring bikes more than equal a fully panto'ed It alian Super bike and then some by any measure except perhaps by someone crippled by blindness or simply lacking of any ascetic sense at all.

Cheers all,

Gilbert Anderson

The North Road Bicycle Company your bicycle outfitter 519 W. North St. Raleigh, NC 27603 USA ph toll free in USA :800/321-5511 Local ph: 919/828-8999 E-Mail: cyclestore@aol.com

Topics

In a message dated 3/23/01 6:33:05 PM, feldmanbike@home.com writes:

<< My $0.02: Frames that could be called the highest quality haven't peaked or

ceased being made, and have been made since at least the 1940's. I'd say

that the nations of origin started as France and Britain, then Italian

quality rose but never quite to Franco/British levels, and then American

builders starting ca. 1970.

DF


----- Original Message -----


From: <Doland.Cheung@sce.com>

To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>

Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 9:32 AM

Subject: [CR]Pinnicle of the vintage lightweight era?


>
> What does everybody think the pinnicle of the vintage lightweight era

might
> be? I was thinking that at some point, a particular frame might be
> considered the high point of the era before index shifting, tig, carbon,
> etc. I kinda always thought that maybe a nice, lugged 753 frame would be
> it. Anybody think otherwise?
>
> doland >>