Re: [CR]A few words about chrome plating

(Example: Framebuilders:Pino Morroni)

Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:12:48 -0700
From: "Brian Baylis" <rocklube@adnc.com>
To: Brandon Ives <monkey37@bluemarble.net>
Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [CR]A few words about chrome plating
References: <Pine.GSO.4.20.0105171201450.11549-100000@comet.bluemarble.net>


Brandon,

I don't think regular clear would do the trick, but possibly musical instrument lacquer would.

Brian Baylis
>
> I was just thinking about this and if you clearcoated over nickel the
> shine should last, right?
> enjoy,
> monkeyman known to the IRS as Mr. Brandon Ives
>
> "Nobody can do everything, but if everybody did something everything would
> get done." Gil Scott-Heron
>
> On Thu, 17 May 2001, Moos, Jerry wrote:
>
> > I believe I've read of some frames being patrially nickel plated, so I
> > presume these require frequent polishing to maintain a shiney finish, much
> > like a 5 cent piece. I thought maybe there was a nickel alloy that might be
> > used that wouldn't tarnish as badly. That is presuming that electroplating
> > works with alloys, i.e
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jerry Moos
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian Baylis [mailto:rocklube@adnc.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 10:43 AM
> > To: Moos, Jerry
> > Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > Subject: Re: [CR]A few words about chrome plating
> >
> >
> > Jerry,
> >
> > The reason for chrome over nickel is because nickel will tarnish when
> > exposed to the elements, chrome does not.
> >
> > Brian Baylis
> > >
> > > Brian, while you're educating us, what is the value of chroming a frame,
> > > rather than simply nickel plating it and being done with it? How can one
> > > tell the difference between a nickel plated frame and a chromed one?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Jerry Moos
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Brian Baylis [mailto:rocklube@adnc.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 2:30 AM
> > > To: Diane Feldman
> > > Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > > Subject: Re: [CR]A few words about chrome plating
> > >
> > > Dave,
> > >
> > > All chrome has nickel under it. The electroplating process by nature
> > > requires various "steps" that electrons can jump from one element to the
> > > next. The gap has to be small enough for the process to work. Originally
> > > copper was required for the nickel to stick to. Then the chrome could
> > > stick to the nickel. What happened was that through chemistry the
> > > industry formulated a nickel compound that would bond to steel, thus
> > > eliminating the neccessity for the copper step. Most of what we call
> > > chrome plating is nickel; the chrome itself is only microns thick since
> > > at that point the process is about 3% effecient as compared to about (as
> > > I sort of remember) nickel which is around 30% and copper which is very
> > > effecient at around 70% or so as I recall. The nickel is the primary
> > > source of durability and gloss (or depth) of the chrome. I think that
> > > covers it for the basics.
> > >
> > > Brian Baylis
> > > La Mesa, CA
> > > >
> > > > Ah, yeah I guess I was asking if there was any benefit in a nickel
> > and/or
> > > a
> > > > copper layer under the chrome in terms of durability, or corrosion
> > > > resistance, or lessening any weakening of the steel.
> > > >
> > > > DF
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Brian Baylis" <rocklube@adnc.com>
> > > > To: "Diane Feldman" <feldmanbike@home.com>
> > > > Cc: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 8:03 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [CR]A few words about chrome plating
> > > >
> > > > > Dave, I'm not sure what you're asking. Please clarify.
> > > > >
> > > > > Brian Baylis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What about a nickel layer under the chrome? I remember Ten Speed
> > > Drive
> > > > > > making a big deal about the multi-layer copper, nickel, and chrome
> > on
> > > > their
> > > > > > frames in the 1980;'s. At least on the top of the line Ciocc and
> > > > Tomasso
> > > > > > frames, the plating looked great, but how did it last and did the
> > > nickel
> > > > > > have anything to do with it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > David Feldman
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Brian Baylis" <rocklube@adnc.com>
> > > > > > To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:12 AM
> > > > > > Subject: [CR]A few words about chrome plating
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Listmembers,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are a few key points regarding chrome plating that weren't
> > > > > > > completely addressed, which I'd like to illuminate since the topic
> > > > came
> > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > First, it is of prime importance to have a very good relationship
> > > with
> > > > > > > ones' plater if one expects excellent results while avoiding the
> > > > > > > pitfalls that can (but do not neccessarily have to) accompany a
> > > chrome
> > > > > > > plating job. The problem of drainage is easily solved by one of
> > two
> > > > > > > methods. The best one is not to have any holes in the seat stays
> > or
> > > > fork
> > > > > > > blades in the first place. The only safe way to accomplish this is
> > > > > > > during the framebuilding process; filling the one vent hole in the
> > > > fork
> > > > > > > or stay just after brazing the final joint that encloses the tube
> > > > while
> > > > > > > it is still hot. Trying to fill a hole afterwards is risky and is
> > a
> > > > > > > pretty good way to insure that a small pinhole will allow plating
> > > > > > > solution to enter and have no way to escape. So for resorations it
> > > is
> > > > > > > best to make sure each stay and blade hace two holes at opposite
> > > ends
> > > > > > > that are about 3/32" in diameter. Any GOOD plater can work with
> > that
> > > > and
> > > > > > > give the owner of the frame the ability to introduce a rust
> > > inhibitor
> > > > > > > AFTER the paint job is applied.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regarding polishing. Yes it is dangerous, providing the plater
> > > (which
> > > > > > > includes all but the one I use) goes about it with the polishing
> > > > lathes
> > > > > > > that Jim described. The exceptional plater will have developed a
> > > > > > > "secret" method to accomplish this task without risk to frame or
> > > human
> > > > > > > body. As luck would have it, the polisher at my plater is a good
> > > > friend
> > > > > > > of mine (we have an interest in drums and drumming in common) and
> > > has
> > > > > > > passed this trick on to me; which I can use myself if I'm so
> > > inclined
> > > > > > > (which usually I'm not). But, it is quite safe and only requires
> > > some
> > > > > > > time and effort to accomplish, along with a few special tools and
> > > > > > > whatnot.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Only a really careless or inexperienced plater can accomplish
> > > hydrogen
> > > > > > > embrittlement on a frame. It's not easy to do. As far as I know,
> > > only
> > > > > > > about a half an hour at 300 or so degrees is required to disipate
> > > the
> > > > > > > effect. Maybe industrial (or "hard" chrome) requires 12 to 24
> > hours
> > > at
> > > > > > > temp., but not decorative chrome like we use. Modern nickel
> > > > formulations
> > > > > > > take the place of the old "triple chrome" process and work
> > perfectly
> > > > > > > well. Like Jim said, copper is for heavily pitted parts these
> > days.
> > > If
> > > > a
> > > > > > > frame is that bad off, it's probably best not to chrome (or maybe
> > > even
> > > > > > > ride) it at that point.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The chrome I get from my plater is mirrorlike; it's all in the
> > > > polishing
> > > > > > > and keeping clean tanks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As far as a completely chrome frame goes, OUCH! Costs a bit of
> > money
> > > > for
> > > > > > > a good plater to do it; so there's no point in doubling it by
> > > sending
> > > > it
> > > > > > > to someone else to hand to a plater. Find you own guy and save the
> > > > money
> > > > > > > for a payment on your Ferarri, like Joe said. Good luck.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Brian Baylis