OK, from so of the responses I've gotten off-list I must say I not standing in a giant pile of broken bars. I never said I saw hundreds or even dozens of broken bars, I've personally seen with my own eyes maybe fifteen. Half of those were AVA or similar bars, one SR, a couple moderns, and the rest "classic" Cinellis. I've heard many other stories of broken bars both on-line and in person. I think one of the reasons you may not see more broken Cinellis is that they start to creak like mad long before they'll break and people just replace them. Take what you will from this whole thread whether you believe in bars breaking or not, it's up to you and your feeling of safety. go ride your bike, Brandon"monkeyman"Ives