Confess after long disjointed weekend was feeling need to stir things up. Am fully aware of reverence many of you hold for Grant and Rivendell - two separate entities that get merged. Couldnt help but ponder from an objective business point of view, based on early comments on the Nishiki post, how we're willing to bend our beliefs/understanding/values when more subjective things enter picture. Nishiki bicycles the equal of Rivendells? Of course not. Thats the subjective part. Nishiki, a "brand," created by distributors buying from sources - hows that different from the Riv business model? When they hire a framemaker, (pay benefits, FICA, etc.) invest capital in bricks, mortar and machinery, forecast sales, build to inventory and manage the whole operational picture then they're a manufacturer. I love the look of their bikes and I respect their very innovative marketing. Right up there with Sam Colt, Pied Piper and Tom Sawyer. Maybe they'll refuse to sell me a frame someday after this, I hope not I mean no disrespect. Like to know when Im looking at a shovel I can call it that or should that be spade or fleur de lis or....... sorry that was another subject. Tom Rawson