There has been a boatload of responce to my post so far, and I'm sure it's not over yet; but ther are two points I'd like to make relative to Jons comments.
First, as hard as it may be to believe, I do NOT dislike Jim. Certainly we have differing views on a subject or two, but actually I'd bet the farm that overall (probably 90%) of things relative to vintage bikes we would agree on. Jim has never done anything directly to hurt me or my feelings. I'm reasonably sure Jim doesn't like me though, based on our exchanges on the list. What I find is that all human beings are in their essence pure and perfect. A wise man recognizes that and lives that at all times, regardless of what has happened, who they are, their national origin, or the color of their skin. Occassionally one can be disappointed by another persons behavior. I know the origins of what make any particular person act a certain way, and in time even those things are forgiven. Our differences are primarily pholosophical, in other words the differences exist within our belief systems which is the foundation of our behavior, how we act, and how we treat others around us. It's really nothing more than that. I'm quite sure that most of what Jim is upset at me about actually is due to my "association" with others who don't get along with Jim either, which is everyone I've ever been in contact with in this business. I'm just handy (almost) none of these other people are on the list, although most of them have been mentioned at one time or another. Tesch in particular. I'm sure if Jim actually sat down and thought about it, he would realize that I am probably as close to a real friend as anyone he knows, as odd as that may sound to everyone. I can honestly say that there is not a single person in my life that I do not like in some way or another and appreciate for their uniqueness, including Jim. Just let the love flow, dude.
Secondly, Jeff in his wisdom is in fact correct. As a species governing ourselves will not work for exactly the reasons he cites. But I'm going to plead "special circumstances" on this one issue on the list only because of its importence and the effect it has on the present and future of vintage collecting. I would like to see this through to the end for the sake of history and for the memory of Mario and his legecy. Based on my private mail and the list responces thus far, I think that most if not all would like to get down to the nuts and bolts on this one. I promise I don't have any other "issues" to resolve. I'm not into a free-for-all or a bloodbath, but resolution in this case would be nice.
Also, if I stick around I would like to address the piece by piece review of the Confente frame that I was lining up several months ago. Let's see what happens.
I have a ton of personal responces to wade thru now and it may take several days to deal with it all, but I will get to it as soon as I can. Meanwhile back to lurking; just had to make a couple of points.
Brian Baylis Heart uplifted by the many responces in La Mesa, CA. Perhaps there is hope for the human race!
> Hi all. As a political science teacher, I'm now about to do what I
> sometimes criticize in class: straddle the ole fence, ride down the
> center of the street, equivocate, talk out of both sides of my mouth, etc.
> On the one hand... I have enjoyed the one-two punch of Brian and Jim.
> They both love bikes; there is no love lost between them; and they both feel
> passionately about their views. Before I view any emails on the list, I
> look at the email addresses of what is in my mailbox, and whenever one of
> them has something to say I stamp it as numero ono priority. Right up
> there with my own work -- ok, often ahead of my own work. Moreover, I
> think that the only way we can get their perspectives about that era is
> to let them a bit of brawling. It's too bad that they don't like each
> other, but that's just the way it is, and I am willing to put up without the
> love and kisses in order to hear what they have to say.
> On the other hand ... Once you give leeway to two people, you have to ask
> yourself as the listmeister how you treat others on the list. Imitation
> is the sincerest form of flattery, and if some of the big names are doing
> it, others might be tempted to wade in. Without in anyway excusing ole
> Ken Denny -- hi Ken -- I should note that some of his big time flames before
> his latest flameout occured after things got stirred up about Masi. And
> without being too demeaning to the ibob list, of which I'm a member, I can also
> say that the flame wars there start very quickly and can be harder to put
> out than a forest fire in California.
> Dale is walking a thin line between the gathering of information and the
> dissemination of opinions couched in such a way as to be hurtful. I miss
> Brian's and Jim's contributions. I would also be sad if the list turned
> into a free-for-all.
> jon cowden
> ithaca, ny