What I am saying here, Tom, is that although the Cuban and Central American riders here, have the oddest training habits, I believe that many are still outrageously fast and capable. As to their training habits: bizarre. They start in the morning well before work, at about 7:00 A.M. with a nice pace warming up to a steady 21mph (same as the fair pelotons). At 8:00 they start getting bizarre with patternless training. 5 mph up a hill and 10 mph down with arguments, cell phone chatting, throwing banana peels and silly gel drinks. Maybe 15 mph up hill followed by 15 down into a two mile peloton sprint at 25 mph. Another 15 mph five mile flat followed by five miles at 24 mph. Then they drink coffee and act rather macho (I am pretty fluent in Spanish, so I know all the penis and vagina words which clue me into their general machoness). Now I drink no coffee, and will not do Gatorade nor any of it's rip off cousins. I find it hard to believe that these guys don't know how to wield a wrench, sufficiently to keep things gear-quiet. There are three other guys that have about the fastest pace here of anyone. The Bianchi man, The Pinerello man and the Cologno guy. They hold a 23 mph pace from about 6:00 PM until 8:00 and the Bianchi guy (Daytona I think -the bike name, not just the campy components) holds that same pace and faster sometimes until after 9;00.) The Italian high tech equipment seems to be better maintained and never makes any noise. I would much prefer to stay with the Italian equipment trio but I keep getting sick after two miles, where they refuse to slow down for the bad windy sections in the little loop they work out in. New York's Central Park is better where there was always some group my speed to pull with. In South Florida there are almost no classic bikes seen, except being used as beaters for beach bums on liquor store runs. Our lack of classic bike appreciation is indicative of the general low standards of education in this part of the country....... nice guys, but mostly mall consciousness. Garth,maybe this isn't my true home- Libre