Re: [CR]Re: Fight pickin' you bet Brandon!

Example: Events:Cirque du Cyclisme:2004

Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:57:04 -0700
From: Brian Baylis <>
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Fight pickin' you bet Brandon!
References: <>


Not to disagree with anything you've said; just a comment about "becomming a framebuilder". First, have your head examined; if you fail that then you're qualified to be a framebuilder ;-o. Seriously, to be a framebuilder, to me, is to be an individual, first and formost. Otherwise one could work at a bike factory or something. So, if one "becomes a framebuilder", having an individual perspective and purpose is completely acceptable. As a matter of fact I would think it is expected of us. The builder will decide which approach he or she will take and (hopefully) proceed as a "specialist" in some aspect(s) of the framebuilding game. If everyone built the same stuff, those who wanted something else would have no where to get it. (God forbid, they'd have to become framebuilders themselves just to get what they wanted.) So I think it's obvious that it's cool if we have various tastes, talents, styles, work habits, design philosophies, etc. It's actually the job of the consumer to find the builder that suits their needs. Sure, it's a chore, but who ever said buying a bike frame was fun?

Personally, I have no use for the wingnut and wacko requests. The only thing I've learned from that is to stay away. There are plenty of guys who love that stuff, and are even good at it. I prefer not, I specialize in something else. No worries.

My number one rule about building frames is it has to be something I like and want to do, otherwise hit the highway in the direction of the next framebuilder on your list. See, I told you it wasn't fun. Odd co-incidence that everything I make is the way I like it; just so happens the customer has similar taste. Simple really. That way I can guarentee that my whole heart was in the project, start to finish. Brandon is very wise to limit what is is willing to do. Being a slave to what the industry wants you to do isn't satisfying to some. For others it is a neccesity, and each individual has the freedom and my blessing to choose to do any variation they deem correct for their needs. Period.

Also, I don't suppose there's any law that a framebuilder can't also be ones' own best customer. Technically, I'm my best customer in that I have bikes of my own that are every bit the equal of the few customers who own such fancy frames; and I have almost all of my one-of-kinds or first-ones-of. I can count 12 bikes just sitting here that I've built for myself including a tandem and a triplet. There are at least 5 more in the holding pattern. Can't say I don't do it for my own pleasure.

This is all fun, right?

Brian Baylis Living large on the lunitic fringe.
> << Gilbert has touched the most important aspect to any craftsman/artist is
> that they're only as good as their customers.>>
> <<I'm becoming a framebuilder not to make money, but
> because I've wanted to be one since I was 12 years old. Different builders
> use different methods the "weed out" the type of customers they don't
> want, but by not looking at it as a living I can refuse anything I don't
> feel comfortable about. Luckily, few builders I know ever build
> anything with their name on it they would rather not have, because they
> know they're only as good as the customer you're building for.
> Brandon"monkeyman"Ives>>
> Brandon I didn't say that! I said,
> "A thing to remember,
> The best work from custom work shops is commissioned by the buyer, not the
> builder. I would guess David Bohm and Richard Sachs best work came from their
> best customer (if you can define that) that was willing and able to pay for
> it."
> I might add:
> Building a frame is only as good as the customer sounds odd to me, a little
> elitist.
> A more accurate statement might be a customers bike will only be as good as
> the builder can build, but this misses the point of course. A builder has to
> have some minimal standards otherwise he is competing with robots in China
> for customers (and prices).
> I think the weeding out process (of customers) you mention is coming awfully
> early for someone getting started but time is limited for everyone. The
> wingnut and wacko requests are where I feel a good builder will learn his
> best tricks or worst limitations. I suspect a good builder will learn
> something new every day he is at his craft, faster if he's screwing up.
> That's my game, screwing up and I'm good at it.
> All the best, don't take my comments harshly.
> Gilbert Anderson in Glorious NC today.
> In a message dated 5/23/01 4:31:20 PM, writes:
> "Nobody can do everything, but if everybody did something everything would
> get done." Gil Scott-Heron
> On Wed, 23 May 2001 wrote:
> > A thing to remember,
> >
> > The best work from custom work shops is commissioned by the buyer, not the
> > builder. I would guess David Bohm and Richard Sachs best work came from
> their
> > best customer (if you can define that) that was willing and able to pay for
> > it.
> >
> > It's hard o spend days and days filing lugs if you have to donate the
> effort
> > to the old racers home when you were making less than minimum wage before
> you
> > started.
> >
> > My 2 cents will by you a cup of coffee in Afghanistan, I'll be the guy
> > sitting there wearing the patch on his shirt for easy recognition.
> >
> > Gilbert Anderson in cool and sunny Raleigh NC
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 5/23/01 3:26:53 PM, writes:
> >
> > << In a message dated 5/23/01 10:24:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > writes:
> >
> > << Who is a better builder ... Ron Cooper or Mario Confente? >>
> >
> > Hey gals & guys:
> >
> > I am really liking this nice relatively quiet period with no one showing
> > their anti-social behavior. Although I know all this is tongue-in-cheek,
> > fighting is not what this whole deal is about and I hasten to remind you
> all
> > it takes very little (and no particular genius) to really get folks upset...
> >
> > So relax and enjoy!
> >
> > Re: who is the best builder.. Truth is all these famous guys have probably
> > had a bad day and an inspired day. It really is like saying what person is
> > the most beautiful.. It's a lot in the eye of the beholder and the constant
> > fretting over THE BEST causes some fine other people/bikes to get
> overlooked
> > in the process.. Plus people constantly blowing off that their favorite
> > bike/builder is better than the others is at least boring and tiresome!
> Give
> > it a rest!
> >
> > Diversity is what is most fun and interesting!!
> >
> > Dale Brown
> > Greensboro, North Carolina >> >>