Grant,
I'm afraid I disagree on a few points. Some of what you are saying here sounds like stuff that may once have been arguable, but no longer is because Campy and Shimano have changed so radically in the last 15 years.
"The whole 'grouppo' designation is a marketing idea, not a manufacturing one, so it's no surprise that a company like campy is more likely to have parts that are less easy to label in a tidy fashion over time."
I really do believe that the parts group has a real meaning from a manufacturing standpoint. This is especially true with Shimano and the Ultegra and Ace groups. These two groups share no component and only a very small number of small parts. I suppose this is possible becasue Shimano is such a huge company and it is worth the trouble to make every nut and bolt to a standard that suits the group. There is no sense putting really nice hardware on a mid-priced group unless you make so little of everything that the economies of scale are lost. In any case, I think Shimano puts a lot of effort into applying manufacturing standards appropriate to the price point on their groups, right down to (nearly) the last small part. Naturally, the downside is that you can't stock just one style of brake block, for example, so it is a little harder for the retailer and the customer to get the correct OE part.
Go back a generation and some of the Ultegra and Dura Ace drivetrain parts didn't even interchange, so for good or for bad, the group concept is a very real manufacturing concept in that case. Of course some will say this was a marketing ploy, but I'm not convinced. I think the original Dura Ace parallelogram layout was not ideal so they changed it for the later, lower piced groups, but didn't want to make a major change to the already existing Ace stuff.
Regarding: "so it's no surprise that a company like campy is more likely to have parts that are less easy to label in a tidy fashion over time."
Certainly no longer true. While very few Campy parts ever bore model names in the past (only some rear ders and hubs, as I recall) the newer parts all have model names printed right on them. Maybe this is done because so many of Campy's parts look so similar, maybe this is done because they ARE so similar. Whatever the reason, I think Campy has shown that parts are very easy to label in a tidy fashion by doing just that. Change the logo and Croce becomes Chorus, or whatever. Adding the model names was a definite mojo killer in that you no longer need to "know your Campy" to distinguish the models. Mystique is gone.
"Shimano, on the other hand, has always been quick to change logos, names, packaging (and usually pricing) to make sure the loose ends are tied. I like it that campy stuff isn't always so "tidy", that's another reason why they have MOJO."
I suppose that this is true in the sense that if they moved the 'ace crankset down into the 'teg group (a la Campy) they would change the packaging, the grahic on the part, etc. in response to the change. Yes, even today Campy might just start tossing cranks in boxes marked Croce, right into shipments of Chorus groups. Is this mojo? I think it reflects a different culture, and a smaller manufacturer.
At first when I read this I thought you were suggesting that Shimano was much quicker to change actual product designs than Campy, but I now see that you have not said this. I'm glad becasue I consider that one of those things that was once true but no longer is, yet has hung around as an enduring Campy myth, along with:
Camy's more durable
better standard of finish
better bearing quality
better spare parts supply
easier to service / more servicable
"if you buy a centaur equipped bike, you get a record chain."
Errr, or maybe it is a Centaur Chain that comes with the Record group... Boy, that sounds like less of a bargain.
Tom Dalton
Bethlehem, PA
Grant McLean Grant McLean <Grant.McLean@SportingLife.ca> wrote: Hi Tom
Thanks for the clarification and expansion on the pedal identification.
One point I'd like to add is how the issue of what parts go into what groups actually shows what a somewhat artificial construct of the 'group' really is. This extends to components made today. There is no chorus or centaur 10speed chain, there is only one chain for 10speed, so if you buy a centaur equipped bike, you get a record chain.(sorry, not a 60's record, but record 10 ;-) If you buy a chorus crank today, (not that you would) you get a record inner chainring. These are parts with only one part number. The other issue is finding what's the difference between some parts. Try to find a difference between a chorus and record 10speed front derailleur, (besides the logo) The record is about $3 more at wholesale, so how could there possibly be any major difference.
The whole 'grouppo' designation is a marketing idea, not a manufacturing one, so it's no surprise that a company like campy is more likely to have parts that are less easy to label in a tidy fashion over time. Shimano, on the other hand, has always been quick to change logos, names, packaging (and usually pricing) to make sure the loose ends are tied. I like it that campy stuff isn't always so "tidy", that's another reason why they have MOJO.
Grant McLean Toronto, yes it's too hot to ride today, Canada
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