Bob and the Gang,
Finally, past midnite here in CA I'm going to take a whack at Bob Reids question of "raising the bar". I've been trying to get to this for quite some time and have had a lot of time to contemplate the answer. You guys might want to whip up a slice of pizza or some bangers and mash and a brew because this could take a while. I've been extra busy, lost a day today attending a memorial service in L. A., and have all this "information" festering inside me. Let's lance this baby!
If I understand correctly Bobs' statement regarding relative cost of frames in say the early 70's; I can provide this answer. When my partner and myself were producing "Wizard" frames in 1974 we set our prices about equal to a Masi or Colnago frame of the period. The first few Wizard frames sold for $175. Albert Eisentraut "A" frames cost somewhere around $300 at the time I think (I paid $240 for a new one in 1972 when Colnago frames cost $195). Considering the vast differance in the amount of time Albert put into a frame for the extra $45 it's hardley a big bonus. For me Albert set the bar along with Pogliaghi, Masi, and Colnago. I was less familiar with Singer, Herse, and Hetchins since those were generally touring style machines. I always liked Hetchins but never owned one as a young cyclist. I now have a special fondness for The Flying Scot since I find them as well built as any Masi of the period. Haven't ridden mine yet but expect a ride typical of bikes with a lot of rake which is what one encounters with bike from that period (1958).
So, for starters, I believe most young American framebuilders were competing with the upper end of frame prices which may be slightly higher than English frame prices; but if you look at if from the perspective of how many dollars per hour each builder makes I'll bet you there is very little relative differance. What is different is that an American custom builder might put the same number of manhours into one frame as opposed to three frames that someone else might build. In framebuilding one runs into "diminishing returns" quite early on in the process. We can look at thousands of high production and even robot built lugged steel frames from any period or counrty and find bikes that work well, ride well, and last plenty long; many will last indeffinitely. And yet there are several "levels" of framebuilding above that which involve various degrees of application of work that produces diminishing returns. Most of these "returns" are in the area of aesthetic and/or artictic application of talent. They do not neccessarily add to the lifespan of the bike or the ride and fit of the bike. Therefore for some, perhaps many, the rest of the "fluff" has no value. Fair enough. But was as "collectors" we know otherwise. Some people either enjoy or appreciate refinements in craftsmanship. Personally, I find that it is these points that give a frame chatacter and personality; MOJO if you will. Mojo also comes in many forms and is different things to different people. In order not to be comparing "apples to pears" I will attempt to illiminate this subject from my perspective and then each of you out there in cyberspace can decide if there is a "bar" and wheather or not it was raised.
Just to begin with, I do not know if Bob has ever had to opportunity to observe first hand and at close range the work of an American builder that would fit his criteria for comparison. Some are opposed to looking closely at frames and making comparisons in favor of just riding the bloody things; but I have to counter with "what's wrong with doing both?" I have spent countless hours of my life appreciating thousands of bike frames of hundreds of different makers for the past 30 years. One just can't help comparing the workmanship of one bike to the next since you will most of the time not get to ride it. I'll say this again just so no one forgets; but the ride and the fit of the frame and the practicality and longevity of the bike are primary, ALWAYS. If there is such a thing as a "Master Framebuilder" then his/her job begins here. Since this discussion is about "custom framebuilders" it is safe to say that the bike will be "built to order". Amongst "custom framebuilders" there are two types. There is the "made to measure" frame and there are by deffinition "custom frames". The line first must be drawn here so as not to be comparing apples to pears. To be sure, they are two different things. In all countries this division exists amongst framebuilders. We have the same here and I think the "bar" that Bob refers to may have been established in each catagory by such builders as Richard Sachs and Dave Tesch who represent the pinnicle of "my look, my ride" as they put it. These frames have their own look which is lugs and fittings styles, color schemes, graphics, etc. The details are crisp and the craftsmanship is excellent. Having world class painters helps the cause trememdously when comparing frames to european counterparts. Ironically, American paint standards drove many Euro companies to produce much better and more creative paint jobs for the world market. Colnago and Tomassinni in particular have done great work. The ride is consistant in that whatever "ride" the builder has chosen is what you will get. Richard and Dave are at opposite ends of the steering issue so you can take your pick. No one has reinvented the wheel when it comes to frame geometry. I've been studying this a bit more lately and again it is clear that those issues are a matter of personal taste; depending on wheather you prefer to lean the bike and have it go there or employ esoteric techniques of "countersteering" which long rake bikes do easier that short rake bikes. I see both trends on both sides of the pond.
The "other" catagory of framebuilding is actually quite smaller in numbers regardless of where you are. True "custom framebuilders" would be those who tend to take each frame as a new and different project. There are no "standard" anything. One reason one must divide these two catagories is because a lot more time is required to adjust for different dimentions of fittings and also non-standardized frame measurements. For example, if all forks have the same rake, dropouts, bend, tubing, etc.; one can make up bunches of them in one effecient operation. When you spec. a frame from the ground up you have to pay attention to every detail, keep things together, search out all kinds of parts and all kinds of crap that suck up time. There is no substitute for it either, there are no diminishing returns because you cannot build a true custom frame without it. Every dimention on every frame I build is "custom" based on my determining what the rider wants. Note that is not what "I want the customer to have (my ride) but in fact "their ride". The time and expertise (and courage) to take the words of the customer which you extract by careful questioning and translate it into a bike frame that is for you, and only you, right down to the very last custom selected tube. Most of those decisions go on behind the scenes in that the customer is not there when I'm digging through dozens of boxes looking for exactly the lugset, bottom bracket, fork crown, and tubing, to make this dream come true. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye. And all this before you can even make the full scale drawing to begin the frame. I don't know how the Euro counterparts go about sizing and specing a frame, but having owned and built dozens of classic and experimental (in that I was seeking to learn something) frames and having been sizing customers since 1974 I think that possibily a higher standard of fitting and custom selection may not exist. I think it fair to say that such things do contribute to the ultimate outcome of the frame and is part of what must be considered when comparing one custom frame to another. I don't know how much of this still goes on in europe. At that point comparisons are subjective since each builder is in fact an "artist" who is investing extra time at diminishing returns in the name of individuality and creativity. But at the same time these builders spend enormous amounts of time making sure their work is symetrical, graceful, and unique. Every detail of quality stress free construction is attended to. Special attention is given to using the best techniques for joining the tubes and producing sharp clean edges. This is time consumeing and requires a certain amount of patience and skill. Each one is different and no comparison can be made other than what your personal taste dictates, assuming all else is equal. I consider Peter Weigle, Richard Moon, and myself to be good examples of custom framebuilders.
Having thought about this topic for a while I have come to the conclusion that part of what Bob is questioning is actually a cultural differance between the US and other countries. Circumstances here cause us to be inspired by our origins (since very few of us are natives) and cause us to want to emulate our heros. I grew up under the impression that Faliero Masi was some sort of God, and that these works of art were highly desireable. Speaking only for myself, but I have never thought in terms of trying to "one up" any Euro builder or any Amreican builder. I only do what make me happy. I enjoy bicycles. I think they are also beautiful in many ways, both as a piece of machinery and as an art piece. I strive to do simple things expertly, fancy things tastefully, never make something that will break, and to make sure that the customer not only got what they were expecting but a lot more; most of which they are unaware of in terms if my attention to detail. All of this comes at a price. I will say it again, I'm pretty sure there is no imbalance when comparing wages of framebuilders who do true custom work, regardless of where you are. Our frames cost more and you cannot compare them in many ways; but we are not laughing all the way to the bank. Profitable framebuilding begins at the made to measure level if you're good and lucky. Custom framebuilding is for the preservation of the craft in it's purest form and for the pure love and satisfaction of doing it. If there are others worldwide doing the same I do not see much of it. Yes, the market in the US can support a few builders of this type and several of the others as well so there is no need to even consider the question of wheather the bar has been raised. Americans buy Italian, French, and English bikes also, but Euros generally don't buy American frames. We aren't neccessarily better, we're just different over here. But you might find it interesting to see first hand and close up a frame bare and with no paint and a finished painted frame in order to better understand why we obsess over the details as we sometimes do. There is something quite satisfying about well executed work no matter who made it. In order to determine if we are benefitting from "kudos of classic names" it would be best to assemble a large varity of world class frames all together in one place and compare then side by side to learn and see the most. I do this pretty much every day; it's facinating and educational and I never tire of it. If you're not too far from Manchester I do know of 3 American frames in residence there. Maybe you could take a peek at them.
There is a lot more I wanted to say, but I'm running out of gas. I should be back to somewhat regular participation soon. I will address comments or questions generated by this diatribe. I hope no one takes this as agressive, I intend only to address the question presented to us with all due respect to Bob and anyone else involved.
Brian Baylis La Mesa, CA Wow, the alarm will go off in 3 hours 20 mins.!