Jim and all,
20 lb touring bikes are a problem for me too! I've seen some of your frame and component work and I am very respectful of your abilities. I have heard all sorts of printed rumors about the bikes built for the French touring trials over the years. Jan Heine in Seattle if a bit more up on the details(they must make a difference). Specially drawn ultra thin tubing was then thinned by the builder; no SP tubing in these bikes. Interesting sidebar: my Rene Herse (Randonnuese/Camping/Demontable) is made with Reynolds 531C tubing according to the decal. When I ordered my bike I remember asking Mime(sic) Herse (Rene's daughter) in broken French if the demontable design was rigid. I thought a take apart frame would wiggle all over the place and with camping gear it would be unrideable as all my touring bikes up to that time were not up to snuff in this department. Her reply was in her best Julia Childs French accent; "Oh Mssr Anderson; tres, tres rigid". I was super skeptical but it was so cool I could not resist. To my amazement it was tres, tres rigid. I was tempted to enter it in a race or two once.
Once I put 80 lb. of gear on the rear (low gravity racks) and handlebar bag and road quite a ways, maybe a mile or two no hands! Super stable, steerable with your butt cheeks. It's even easier with some weight balanced on a low rider style front pannier rack. This was a pleasant suprise to me. As a side note this bike fully equipped as intended is no light weight (mid to high 30's as I recall) but I must weigh the frame and other components sometime. It has two sets of lighting, 2 D-cell battery jobs and a generator setup and four luggage carriers along with mudguards and demontable fittings.
On design there is touring and there is touring. Racing generally has less overall diversity. I mean there are track racers (used to be same bike for pursuit and sprints, not much anymore), crit/road, cyclocross, HPV but when we talk racing we speak of some variation in a Tour de France style bike.
The bikes used in the touring trials (as I understand it) had a kind of sport touring ethic (very little by essential gear) with lighting, mudguards and racks required during weigh in and participation. The bikes were used over mountain roads and trails that sometimes would make a NORBA organizer green with envy. The components were shaved to the bare minimum to last through the event only I have been told. Gears had to be wide as points were taken on for walking or toe dabbing on the steep sections. You were penalized for broken parts.
The 50lbs loaded full touring rig with bike seems very light to me. I usually have that much in gear without the bike on most trips.
Jim do you have pictures of the bike loaded and unloaded that Dale might post of your work on his sight. Inquiring minds?
Regards,
Gilbert Anderson Raleigh NC
In a message dated 8/11/02 2:26:20 PM, jimmerz@qwest.net writes:
<<
I have a hard time with a 20# touring rig. I made a cost no object touring bike for a very good friend, Paul Sylvester around 1979. I have done quite a lot of touring in tough situations and know how to make a reliable machine. Touring in the USA and South American is not like touring in Europe. Paul's bike was made with SP tubing, anything lighter in steel is just too flexible. I used Super Record for everything except the brakes, triple cranks, BB and rear derailleur. I made a special BB from titanium. The rear derailleur was a Ti Duopar. Brakes Mafac cantis with SR levers, and I made all the hardware from 7075 alloy. I used Ti for all the bolts that were not 7075 alloy throughout the bike. My CrMo rack in front, the very low one like Blackburn saw and copied in a half baked way. No rear rack. Wheels are a problem on touring bikes. I used Campi low flange 40 hole front and rear, 5 speed. I don't remember the rims, but light rims don't hold up. I remember using the first 700c tires from Specialized, I was testing them for Sinyard.
Anyway, the total weight with all camping gear and cooking kit was under 50 lbs. Paul and his brother Michel rode across the US, then to Europe. I think they rode for 6 months total in this one ride. I met them in Greece and spent 5 weeks riding just in Greece, great ride! I don't remember the bike weight, but I doubt it was much under 25 lbs.
Jim Merz Bainbridge Is. WA
Slightly O.T.------A thought on touring Bike Weights For an interesting comparison I did a ride to a ride (Early Saturday start) Friday night with a friend of a little over 40 miles in the dark on a wonderful night. We were able to arrive early at midnight as the start was not till 7:30 AM, then free camped at the start. My newest bike was "undated classic Alex Moulton" stainless steel job with dual lighting front and rear, tent, sleeping kit, and three changes of clothes, jacket and water and bottle (just one) and it weighed in at 39 lbs total. My Rene Herse Camping/Demontable/Randonese combo bike weighs nearly this much by itself, maybe more. Not shabby but my friend was riding a similar rig sans sleeping bag (chilly night for both us in the 55 d range) configured on one of the best but heaviest camping bikes arround( Miyata terra Liner) and his bike and gear weighed in at 46 lbs total with two full H2O bottles! Not bad. How did those old French bikes get so light?
Yours in cycling,
Gilbert Anderson Raleigh, NC USA >>
Gilbert Anderson
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