Re: [CR]chrome now stainless steel

(Example: Framebuilders:Bernard Carré)

From: "davebohm" <davebohm@cox.net>
To: "Jim Merz" <jimmerz@qwest.net>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
References: <000501c24883$f875a390$0200000a@biker2>
Subject: Re: [CR]chrome now stainless steel
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:13:19 -0700


Jim , with all due respect just a few points I would like to add.

"Normally the copper plating acts as kind of a filler, it goes on to fill little flaws. "

This is why stainless drop-outs and lugs can be diffiucult to polish. There is no hidding the finish or filling flaws as can happen with chrome work. I do have to say the the best chrome work should be perfectly finished before any plating is done but few realize the time investment neccesary to accomplish that. Brian is not exagerating when he speak of how difficult it is and there is no replacing doing it by hand.

"Some comments on the list have been that stainless drops should be used. I have used these. I built frames for Spence Wolf and sometimes he wanted Art Stump dropouts. They are harder to braze, silver however works OK. But I don't like using a material that is much weaker than forged drops. Stainless that has been investment cast is even weaker than wrought stainless material, and has very poor elongation. Even Campagnolo 1010 dropouts crack on the right side after so many miles, I liked the forged Shimano dropouts as they were made from CrMo."

I think there is a lot of misinformation concerning stainless steel and stainless drop-outs. I have used stainless drop-outs almost exclusively ever since I started and have never had any failiures whatsoever. Henry James drop-outs have been used for I think at least 15 years and I have never heard of one cracking.

Realize that there are over 50 types of stainless steel in use today and most of these can be cast. Stainless usually but not always has a lower ultimate strength level than CrMo but herein is were the confusion lies. Stainless is far more ductile and has a much, much better elongation than standard steels. You can take a H.J drop and just twist it until its completely mangled, put it back and it will not break. They do cold set more easily but drop-outs in my opinion do not need to be really strong as part of there functioning.

Stainless can be a little tricky to use. Different fluxes, torch settings and procedures are neccesary to get a good joint. Only silver can be used to braze stainless, not brass. Stainless also builds up a refractory oxide when exposed to air, this is why its stainless and this refractory oxide needs to be removed completely right before brazing, The only way to do this is through mechanical means, sanding, grinding. If I prep a lug and let it sit overnight, I need to perform this procedure over again. I think this is at the heart of most stainless lug and drop-out failiures that occur.

Now I don't like that the choices for stainless drop-outs are limited. I believe that this limits creativity when building so I don't use them everytime but when I can I try to opt for them as I feel they are a great addition to a bike frame.

I think I have said it before. The fear of using stainless steel or any failiures that may happen because of its use in my opinion is not justified. Like all things, the proper choice of materials and the knowledge to use them properly can result in bike frames that are reliable and beautiful.
    David Bohm
    Bohemian Bicycles
    Tucson Az