[CR]!x?%^<+#??@!!!...Yikes!

(Example: Framebuilders)

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:05:29 -0400
From: "M_A_Lebr=?ISO-8859-1?B?8w==?=n" <unreceived_dogma@mindspring.com>
To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: [CR]!x?%^<+#??@!!!...Yikes!

Good afternoon to everyone on The List!

This is that newcomer from Noho, NYC.

First off, this is obviously a wonderful service Dale is providing ‹ I presume at his own generous expense ‹ for this community. I am enjoying The List very much, even though most of the discussion appears more than a little obscure to me at the moment. It will take me a while to get up to speed. I truly appreciate the comment by Mark Agree from Detroit: ³I generally stand mute and stare in wonderment at the arcane information that I see so easily passed about here on this list, and I always hope that I might have something to say.² Speaking for myself, I have no illusions about ever entertaining any hopes of the kind, at least with regard to the ³arcane information².

I do have a nit or two to pick with Dale, however, and this is meant as positive feedback. I will try to camouflage my NYC harshness. I apologize at the outset for my wordiness, a frailty of mine:
>>> With a very few exceptions, I have found CR list folk to be very generous and inclusive of bike forms that we all seem to love.

That was not my perception of this particular exchange. I am seeing that my perceptions in this case are partly a consequence of my inexperience with The List. Brandon "monkeyman" Ives is generously instructive here. But if The List doesn¹t want to be turning off newcomers, my perceptions as a newcomer, right or wrong, are of more than anecdotal value, judging from the positive feedback I have gotten on and off line.
>>> I am hard put to describe any CR member's attitudes so severely.

I criticized COMMENTS, not INDIVIDUALS.

One can choose overstatement or understatement to get one¹s point across: certainly my reference to my inconvenient address in Lower Manhattan is off point for the purposes of this forum, discussions within which quite properly must be kept focused to the purpose of the forum, and I apologize for that.

But now that I have your attention, this is what concerns me: what about the feelings of Moon, et al during that exchange? Maybe they can tell us in what way it is instructive that we haven't heard from them yet, notwithstanding Sach¹s display of a very healthy sense of humor. I suppose I see by now they are already much more familiar than me with the ins and outs of this debate and by now have thick skins. That¹s not necessarily all good (Hey, remember: I¹m the New Yorker!). As a citizen of this U.S. of A., I appreciate the democratic forum and as an artist, I like the idea that everyone here can be an art critic. By the same token, instead of choosing not to read the art critic¹s columns, as some of my colleagues do for good reason, I am going to speak up: in this case, I still do not think it is constructive for some to frame (pun intended) a debate that appears to disregard the creativity and artistry of today¹s craftsmen. Most artists have enough of a struggle as it is. We need to support them. It made me want to run out and place an order with Mr. Weigle today (Sorry Mr Weigle: can¹t afford you just yet.)!

I know most everyone in the group must be very nice people, because I met some of them last weekend at Larz, and enjoyed making a couple new friends. I didn't have an opportunity to meet Dale - don't know if he was there - but someone else also from NYC told me about visiting his enterprise and that he is one of the nicest people one could have a chance to meet. I am looking forward to the opportunity.

That doesn't mean that good people don't get off on unconstructive tangents.

I didn¹t see how this discussion is constructive. To Brandon "monkeyman": I'll chalk it up to my inexperience.
>>> My thanks to all who "bit their tongue" and showed good judgement before firing off that controversial message that you were tempted to send!

Oh, please! No biting of tongues over here! Maybe my tone was off, but why shouldn't people say what they think if it is constructive criticism? How else do you learn? Let it all hang out: this is NYC, the therapeutic capital of the world! Fire away! There is nothing wrong with controversy, and since it is always in the eye of the beholder who is to say what is controversial? Apparently some people think Rivendales are controversial! Sorry for the folks at Rivendale, unless they like it of course: as the old saw goes, love me or hate me, just don¹t forget me! Hey, I am sorry if I have offended anyone, but if that is the case, they ought to speak up. NOW, damnit!

But what has been really going on is that I¹ve been getting enough mail off-line from people who thanked me for being caring enough to ³risk expressing... (this)...point of view...for the good of the group². They are apparently afraid to make their say so's on-line. That's not healthy‹ask Dr. Ruth! One of them, a member for some years, even thinks I'll be booted out, which is a very un-American thing to imply about Dale.

Thanks to Walt ³Wspokes² & Curt ³Goodrichbikes² for speaking in support online. I¹ll take the liberty of discreetly excerpting from one off-line remark inasmuch as the point made is of benefit to The List: "Thank you for your brisk and honest evaluation of the CR list. Your art-related credentials add a LOT of credibility to your complaints.....My biggest gripe about the CR list is the amount of "living in the past" worship that disregards the practical survivalist concern that lugged steel bikes should continue to be made in this modern era, albeit with modern tubes and modern parts."

Couldn¹t have said it better. If only I should have been so brisk this time.

Very best regards to everyone on The List, sorry for ³creating a bother² with you all and being a pain in the wherever it hurts you most since I obviously have much to learn, and hope you have a nice Labor Day holiday, I¹m gonna keep my mouth shut for awhile and just listen in.

And jay arreu Flasher1, just chill, man...I¹¹d like to follow Sach¹s advice, but you know we got rain in NYC as the song goees. Have to settle for doing the grocery shopping with the wife instead.

OVER AND OUT.

Sincerely,

Michael Lebron
Noho, NYC
new to The List