Re: [CR]Re: Masi talk/division of labor

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To: NortonMarg@aol.com
Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Masi talk/division of labor
From: "Richard M Sachs" <richardsachs@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:38:03 -0500

stevan i fully agree with you. that is-your description of what constitutes 'built the frame' is analogous with mine; you don't have to don't every single task in order to say you 'built' it. but any way you slice it, if others had a hand in some of the more mundane tasks, then the frame is a product of a collaborative effort, tho only the 'builder' may get credit. therein lies my interpretation of that letter that started this thread. e-RICHIE chester, ct

On Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:03:46 EST NortonMarg@aol.com writes:
> In a message dated 11/6/02 6:00:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> richardsachs@juno.com writes:
>
> << fwiw, i still would like to know what folks think about
> this 'division of labor' topic because feel it's central to
> the thread regarding the letter of authenticity. >>
>
> Regarding division of labor, this is just my opinion and I should
> note, I
> never got this far, I did all the work on my own frames because I
> never made
> that many. The thing that makes or breaks a frame is the mitering
> and the
> brazing. Filing, both prep for sand cast fittings and clean up is
> deadly dull
> and tedious. Faliero, at least late in production (70s) used "master
> frames"
> to set the jigs. Using him as an example, if he mitered the tubes,
> assembled
> the tubes in the jig and brazed it, I would consider that he "built"
> the
> frame, even if he didn't finish file it.
> Let's push this a bit farther. Say he hires someone to do the
> mitering...say
> he has this same guy assemble the tubes in the jig and he comes over
> and
> "just brazes" it. Since I feel rather strongly that a bad torch man
> can just
> completely murder a set of tubes, I would be "ok" with owning a
> frame that
> was "just brazed" by the master with all the prep work done by "the
>
> apprentices" and would probably feel it was "brazed" but not fully
> "built" by
> the master. If that's where he was in his career cycle, I'd feel
> lucky to
> have that. I'm making a rather fine distinction because I'm
> particular and
> this illustrates a "shade of gray" in the process.
> This goes back to the whole craft thing of master and apprentice,
> it's how
> apprentices learn. Historically after 4 years as an apprentice you
> qualify as
> a journeyman. IF you have what it takes, after 20 more years of
> applying
> yourself, you may be a "master" of the craft. The journeyman is
> probably
> g more of his own work in terms of total frame building. When there
> gets
> to be enough work that getting an apprentice makes sense, you have
> to give
> them more to do that just push a broom around the shop. A really
> good
> apprentice will WANT to learn how to do all this. It's an ever
> present
> problem, in that as soon as they really know enough to be any good
> (and make
> up for all the time you put into teaching them) they leave!
> If in 1950 whatever, Faliero got an order to build 20 bikes for a
> team, and
> he had someone slot for drop outs and do the prep filing on the
> Fischer
> crowns, bottom brackets and whatever, and HE did the design,
> assembly and
> brazing of all the frame tubes. I would consider those Faliero built
> frames.
> That's orders of magnitude different from contracting out the
> building or
> having someone else in house do all the work.
> That's my nickel's worth.
> Stevan Thomas
> Alameda, CA