Richard,
Regarding building frames for commerce, I consider myself quite the exception to the norm. I am a professional by deffinition but in my heart I do this for the pure satisfaction of creating these things by hand. For an "artist" the process is enjoyable, as you say, and the outcome is very satifying. Bicycles built "creativly" are different than bikes built for commerce. Those who build bikes for commerce usually spend 15 or so hours per frame or they're going to starve to death as they work their fingers to the bone. If one figures what a frame costs compared to the time invested and finds there is a profit in it then that is commerce. I spend a MINIMUM of 60 hours building a frame. Yes, mimimum, and if you were to convert that to the equivelent cost per frame compared to those making bikes for commerce I would have to charge about $9000+ per frame. Needless to say, that isn't going to happen. Nor am I going to modify my routine to build frames that fit into traditional profit formulas. I build frames for the expression of my talents and my own satisfaction. The fact that other people end up owning some of them and pay for them is incidental. My frames are a union of what the buyer wants to own and what I would like to express myself. It is very personal and takes place at a pace that flies in the face of commerce. Financially it's a disaster but there is nothing else in my life that is more satisfying to do. I paint and restore bikes for commerce. Without that I could not exist. I would only build bikes for myself, and after a while I would probably end up having everything I could possibly want. Building historic replicas is fun and challanging and very satisfying, but there is no commerce in it. It is a pure expression of my respect for these machines and a type of exercise that expands my horizons as a framebuilder and artist. The fact that I build one or two special things for myself every year demonstrates a variety of interests in framebuilding. Riding and collecting vintage bikes expands my appreciation for the builders of the past and serves to remind me that there are hundreds of wonderful bikes built for commerce. None of this behavior is conducive to commerce. Face it, I'm a FREAK. I gave up framebuilding for commerce with Wizard. By that time I realized that overwhelmingly bikes are very similar and there are many styles and types of bikes I liked, but none were built without compromise for commerce. The only way to fully express ones' full potential is to ignore commerce and build what your heart desires. Forget about volume. No framebuilder could survive building 5 or 6 frames per year, or fewer, for any length of time. I'm still here, but only because I have other abilities that I enlist to cover the fact that I'm giving away bike frames almost as gifts. And that's exactly what I intend. In the years to come there will be bikes that have been constructed without any consideration to commerce. Bikes that took the builder considerable time to build on account of leaving no detail unexplored. These details cannot always be SEEN in the final product; but if one could stand over my shoulder and watch as I slowly pick at assembling the frame it would become obvious I'm in no hurry for anything, ever. The "difference" if it exists is felt by the owner of the bike because they know that the time I spent was for both their satisfaction and my own. This is how I satisfy myself that my work is "better" than some other things; everything is carefully considered right down to the final pinstripe. My intention at this point is to contribute works that will stimulate those who see them to appreciate the "traditional" craft of framebuilding by hand; the type that is almost dead as we speak. If the "market" revives handmade lugged steel frames it will still only be fleeting I suspect. And even then "modern" trends will creep in. I have frozen my work in time in order to preserve a pure thread of what framebuilding was at it's zenith, in my opinion. There is no commerce in that, even if the market happens to pass through it again. Some people do make frames not for commerce, and I'm one of them. I may be the only one, although I suspect Richard Moon is somewhat similar in his intent.
The experiments are possibly a pipedream, but I'm a fan of knowing and doing. Sure, if we knew the answers perhaps we would not have anything to talk about, but I'm sure we could find other topics to beat to death. Knowing the answers to these questions may be scary in some cases, but I'm willing to put in some effort in order to expand our base of knowledge as opposed to let it ride as we dance around it for years. I'm still curious; is there any differance between identical frames built using "production" methods and thinking as opposed to frames built for the purpose of producing a frame without any compromises. I hope yes, I still think yes. I would hope that those that are technically minded would also be curious. Of course there will always be a market for EVERY type and level of bike. But should we forsake those who genuinely appreciate the craft of custom framebuilding in the traditional style in the interest of commerce. I think not! Someone must persist in order to fill the needs of the very few who can justify the wait to own such a creation, even if it is an emotional choice.
Brian Baylis La Mesa, CA Being eccentric is a full time job! I also think it is marvelous that there are so many different opinions and perspectives.
>
> snipped:
> Brian Baylis <rocklube@adnc.com> writes:
> 1) ... frames built for commerce can probably be said
> to not differ significantly between a single hand and an
> experienced crew. And if you do build frames alone and
> they are no better than a crew then why are you building them??
> 2) It's all well and good to write this stuff to the list, but
> when are we going to collectivly undertake some scientific
> experiments?
> Brian Baylis
>
> 1) your first sentence says you 'agree' with the issue. but-
> all frames are built for commerce. you take money for them,
> don't you?
> and 'better'? that opens up another discussion. i pointed out that
> i thnk the bicycle's 'ride' (uh. what's the 'ride'?!) essentially
> comes from the frame's design. thus, two frames made
> similarly will ride alike. as i wrote, issues regarding fit,
> constructon qualities (alignment, longevity...), details,
> etcetera, are not part of the question of John L.'s that
> i attempted to answer.
> why am i building them? i like to build them. it's a
> challenge. i need income. i don't want to be someone's
> boss.
> 2) we'll never do it. life will continue to 'get in the way'.
> even if there was time, why bother? there will always be
> a need and demand for both bespoke <and> off the rack.
> price, for many, will always be the issue. sacrificing a little
> exclusivity at the expense of the ease of going to the mall
> to pick up a new bicycle will continue to be the norm as
> it's always been.
> there are no concrete answers to this issue of why buy one
> over the other. these are emotional choices, not practical
> ones.
> e-RICHIE
> chester, ct