Re: [CR]tensionometers

Example: Production Builders:Peugeot:PX-10LE

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:47:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Russell roth <>
Subject: Re: [CR]tensionometers

I find the tensionmeter useful in determining if the spokes are at the right tension for particular guages or styles of spokes. To determine if all the spokes have even tension I spin the wheel and as long as the spot where the spokes cross doesn't move up or down all the spokes are even tension, doesn't work with straight pull. Russ roth albany, ny

--- wrote:

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\r?\n>Today's Topics:


\r?\n> 1. Blatant commercial message. LONG! (Richard M Sachs)

\r?\n> 2. Re: tubulars (

\r?\n> 3. re: Hi-E Help?? (Harvey M. Sachs)

\r?\n> 4. Re: tensionometers (carl derrick)


\r?\n> 6. 27" X 32 hole rims, I need help!!! (

\r?\n> 7. Re: Web Sites (Chuck Schmidt)

\r?\n> 8. Meteor bicycle information wanted (Mark A. Perkins)

\r?\n> 9. more tubular tires (Jim McCoin)

\r?\n> 10. FS: Gitane mixte and others (Harvey M. Sachs)

\r?\n> 11. Moulton Series 1 for Sale (Harvey M. Sachs)

\r?\n> 12. Re: Hi-E Help?? (Mark A. Perkins)




\r?\n>Message: 1


\r?\n>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:28:05 -0400

\r?\n>From: Richard M Sachs <>

\r?\n>Subject: [CR]Blatant commercial message. LONG!


\r?\n>Please read everything...

\r?\n>Caution: Shift key at work today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


\r?\n>Will you be at Dale's Le Cirque du Cyclisme?

\r?\n>I will!!!!!!!!!

\r?\n>From what I understand, just as Bobby Richardson

\r?\n>of the old N.Y. Yankess did, I will be batting second

\r?\n>right after Hilary Stone leads off. Since I don't get out much,

\r?\n>here's a few lines about what to expect from me...


\r?\n>I will give the alotted 60 minute presentation. After much

\r?\n>deliberation and culling, though these were to be my

\r?\n>possible topics:

\r?\n>1) Hoarding or collecting, which is better?

\r?\n> (ruled out. it'd be too self serving.)

\r?\n>2) What does the <F> in Ephgrave _really_ stand for?

\r?\n> (nocando pookums. dale said there'd be women present)

\r?\n>3) Cinelli Special Corsa vs. Cinelli Super Corsa.

\r?\n> (too much speculation)

\r?\n>4) Which is better, Masi OR Flying Scot?

\r?\n> (can't do. there will be brits present)

\r?\n>5) Frame 'brand' licensing: Good or bad?

\r?\n> (can linens and perfumes be the next step

\r?\n> from the famous names?)


\r?\n>...I've decided that the subject will be my area of expertise:

\r?\n> *My Life So Far*


\r?\n>Here are a few things I will be bringing for the

\r?\n>show n' tell hour:

\r?\n>1) The twins, a.k.a. my two 1971 Italian Masi

\r?\n> Gran Criteriums, as described in these two links:



\r?\n>2) A 1999 25th Anniversary Replica Model Bicycle.

\r?\n>3) A lovely 'preserved' example of a simple but bitchin'

\r?\n> frame I built in 1991, pictured here:


\r?\n>4) My newest personal bicycle, built since my last newest

\r?\n> personal bicycle was TOTALED during the recent

\r?\n> unpleasantness of late January.

\r?\n>5) A frame in the half-built stages, to be displayed,

\r?\n> Mario-style, in a vintage Campagnolo workstand.

\r?\n>6) A collection of 40+ sets (of three) lugs from the

\r?\n> 50's to the 90's to show those of you who don't

\r?\n> build the frames just what these bad boys look like

\r?\n> in their 'rough' state!

\r?\n>7) Two 4 minute films produced and aired on local

\r?\n> television by the NBC and CBS affiliates. One clip

\r?\n> is from last summer, the other is from '89. (I'm ready

\r?\n> for my close-up, Mr. DeMille).

\r?\n>8) My collection of nearly ONE HUNDRED New Yorker

\r?\n> magazines, from the 20's to the present, each and every

\r?\n> f?cking one of them depicting a bicycle in the cover art

\r?\n> in some way, shape, or form. These treasures are kept

\r?\n> in archival bags. But no matter, if you sneeze within

\r?\n> 100 feet of them, you'll be on my shit list. These things

\r?\n> are the only 'things' more important to me than my

\r?\n> butler building full of nos/nip campy, oops, I mean

\r?\n> 'Campagnolo'.

\r?\n>9) The Pista Resistance, perhaps 'A(nother) Resurrection of

\r?\n> Highest Order', the bicycle that took 30 years to build,

\r?\n> the frame into which all my knowledge, every mistake,

\r?\n> each innovation, every kilometer raced, every lie I ever told,

\r?\n> every frame I ever copied from... yada, yada, yada.

\r?\n> The International, make that the Galactic debut of the

\r?\n> Richard Sachs 30th Anniversary frame built up as a complete

\r?\n> bicycle. Preview pics of the frame are here:


\r?\n>10) And if time permits, I'll talk about,

\r?\n> a) why red Twizzlers are my favorite food,

\r?\n> b) why my favorite scent is fabric softener,

\r?\n> c) why the stripes on my ties MUST descend from the heart

\r?\n> rather than the 'wrong' way,

\r?\n> d) why "someone has to win the race, it might as well be me",

\r?\n> e) why Varttina is my favorite band,

\r?\n> f) why 'Ghost World' is now my favorite movie,

\r?\n> g) why...



\r?\n>And most importantly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

\r?\n>I will be AUCTIONING off three NEW OLD STOCK, never

\r?\n>been read, never been opened, completely sans dna

\r?\n>copies of the June 1990 Bicycle Guide issue outing my

\r?\n>work. The article was written by Christopher Koch.

\r?\n>Here are links:



\r?\n>The high bidders may choose to have their issues personally

\r?\n>autographed by me. (Jeez!).

\r?\n>How to bid????????????????????????/

\r?\n>Simple. If you want to bid on these, send your bid amount

\r?\n>to via email BEFORE the

\r?\n>Wednesday prior to the Cirque. Otherwise, bids will be

\r?\n>'accepted' at Dale's weekend in person.

\r?\n>IMPORTANT: All revenue derived from the high bids will

\r?\n>be applied to the costs Dale incurs to keep the Classic Rendezvous

\r?\n>site in cyberspace. It's a worthy 'cause'. Please bid high.

\r?\n>REMEMBER: There are THREE issues to bid on.


\r?\n>end of message. see you in greensboro.





\r?\n>Message: 2


\r?\n>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:35:39 EDT

\r?\n>Subject: Re: [CR]tubulars



\r?\n>Hi, Jon,


\r?\n>Try WD-40. Do not spray but use brush to apply, it will loosen, rubber,

\r?\n>tape, and even

\r?\n>rim cement.


\r?\n>Ken Toda, High Point, NC. we have summer days and record temp. over 90'




\r?\n>Message: 3

\r?\n>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:37:11 -0100


\r?\n>From: "Harvey M. Sachs" <>

\r?\n>Subject: re: [CR]Hi-E Help??


\r?\n>Eric Elman wrote with notes and questions on Hi-E hubs. I like them, but

\r?\n>they are not w/o "idiosyncracies." Let me see if I can help with his


\r?\n>Eric's description:

\r?\n>Front: low flange, all silver flanges and center, "Hi-E" etched in center,

\r?\n>16h per side.

\r?\n>Rear: High flange (almost 3"), all silver flanges and center with "Hi-E"

\r?\n>etched in center, threaded for a freewheel, 126mm, 24h on drove side and 16h

\r?\n>on other.


\r?\n>EE: So, are these early hubs or recent hubs, about what year? I've seen a set

\r?\n>with black centers so assume thses are older?

\r?\n>HS: I assume earlier. I have some from the 1970s, but the 126 is slightly

\r?\n>later than the 120s we have, I'm sure. I've never seen black centers.


\r?\n>EE: Is the hi-flange rear uncommon as I've never seen another?

\r?\n>HS: I don't recall ever seeing either a low-flange rear or a hi-flange front.


\r?\n>EE: Why a hi-flange rear and low front?

\r?\n>HS: No torque on front wheel, Harlan Meyer (designer/owner) advocated

\r?\n>radial fronts. Thought - I gues, that HF gave better ability to transfer

\r?\n>torque in the back.


\r?\n>EE: Why 16/24h on the rear and how would that be laced up to a 40h rim?

\r?\n>HS: 16/24 was designed to get even spoke tension, given dishing that

\r?\n>increases tension on drive side. Use 16 radials on left, and 24 on the

\r?\n>right. Ah, more subtlety: Use 4x length spokes for "pulling"

\r?\n>(counterclockwise direction from hub to rim) and 2x length for "static" spokes.


\r?\n>EE: These are very light - are they durable and good to use for an

\r?\n>everyday bike

\r?\n>or are do they lack durability and should only be used for races?

\r?\n>HS: There were two different front hubs (at least). Front barrel <20 mm

\r?\n>diameter is the "time trial" hub, recommended for lighter riders. My wife

\r?\n>used hers (with superlight rims) routinely for years till she stopped

\r?\n>riding except the tandem.


\r?\n>EE: How do/did they compare on cost & quality to say Phil hubs and campagnolo


\r?\n>HS: Your HiE hubs have one weirdness about them. Like Phil, they use

\r?\n>cartridge bearings. Unlike Phil, you have to unlace the wheel to pull the

\r?\n>end cap/flange to replace the bearing, if it ever fails. I've never had to

\r?\n>replace one, but don't have near the mileage on them that we have on some



\r?\n>As for quality, leaving artistry out of it, and being a bit heretical, the

\r?\n>Campy Record hub is a fine example of great 1920s design. Great races,

\r?\n>great finish, fine angled flanges and countersunk holes. Phil and HiE are,

\r?\n>in my opinion, much better hubs. Larger diameter axle for more stiffness

\r?\n>and potential for less weight, cartridge bearings for long life and good

\r?\n>performance, and equally good or better spoke seating.


\r?\n>Seeing as they are so obsolete and hard to work on, I would be willing to

\r?\n>trade something of equivalent value, perhaps some Normandy sports... :-)


\r?\n>harvey "heretic" sachs

\r?\n>mclean va


\r?\n>Thanks in advance,

\r?\n>Hi-E(ric) Hi-E(lman)

\r?\n>Somers, CT that had an earthquake this morning at 6:53am





\r?\n>Message: 4

\r?\n>From: "carl derrick" <>


\r?\n>Subject: Re: [CR]tensionometers

\r?\n>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 15:50:55 +0000


\r?\n>I will second this. "Trueness" and maintaining true are dependent on equal

\r?\n>tension. Joe Young by all accounts is considered the

\r?\n>premier wheel builder in this country. His resume reads like the

\r?\n>reincarnation of Spence Wolf. Anyways, Joe insists that equal and maximum

\r?\n>tension are the two critical factors in wheelbuilding, and wheels that he

\r?\n>has built for me over the decades have NEVER gone out of true, and (call me

\r?\n>crazy because I cannot quantify why) but they are also very fast. Joe adds

\r?\n>some other details to his work - things that score high points for me -


\r?\n>1) Center punch the spoke heads to "set" them in the hub flanges. This

\r?\n>technique prevents spoke head "creep" that can effect trueness and tension.


\r?\n>2) On a completed wheel the decals should read from the drive side of the

\r?\n>bike, with the hub spindle markings read from the saddle looking foreward,

\r?\n>directly through the valve hole. For example, say you have a Campagnolo hub

\r?\n>and fiamme rim. With the wheel in a truing stand, spin the wheel so that the

\r?\n>valve hole is up (at the 12:00 position). Looking through the valve hole,

\r?\n>standing behind the wheel, the Campagnolo script on the hub spindle should

\r?\n>be facing you rightside up, also at the 12:00 position, and the rim decal

\r?\n>directly beyond, at the 6:00 position. Technically speaking, it doesn't make

\r?\n>a difference, but aesthetically it make sense.


\r?\n>3) The issue of locktite is always debated, but Joe does not use it and

\r?\n>claims that a properly tensioned spoke will not loosen. I can attest to his

\r?\n>theory, as none of his spokes have ever loosened on me.


\r?\n>Carl Derrick

\r?\n>Queens NY





\r?\n>>From: Richard M Sachs <>


\r?\n>>Subject: Re: [CR]tensionometers

\r?\n>>Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 18:20:53 -0400


\r?\n>>i'd rather have a wheel built with integrity than a wheel

\r?\n>>that's cosmetically round or true. to have it all would

\r?\n>>simply be icing on the cake.

\r?\n>>vintage era rims were not always precise, 'specially the lighter

\r?\n>>ones. they were kept in check as a component of complete wheels

\r?\n>>by being built with PROPER TENSION. tensionometers are just

\r?\n>>a way to quantify this. they don't replace good judgement

\r?\n>>but they can verify errors when something during the build

\r?\n>>goes awry.


\r?\n>>the wheel thing