Re: [CR] Old vs. new again

(Example: Framebuilders)

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Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 09:46:20 -0700
From: "Brandon Ives" <>
Subject: Re: [CR] Old vs. new again

At 11:58 AM -0400 5/19/02, wrote:

I'm not Chuck but I'll reply.
>1) Tell me with a straight face that less than 90% of the bikes of any
>material sitting in my (or your) LBS are TIG'ed....

Mine does if you count bare frames. and it's a strictly high end road shop. If you're ever in Santa Barbara, California stop by Fastrack Bicycles and if it's in in the off-season you may even find Lance or some other pro riders chillin on the couch.
>2) Then tell me with a straight face that the new $3000 TIG'ed "wonder bike"
>that someone buys today is going to be worth more than $600 just a few short
>years down the road. Now there's lasting quality and value!!

Check Ebay any day and follow a few auctions and look at any of the 3-5 year old bikes selling right now. The modern bikes have a little better price retention than 15-20 year old bikes , about 60%. Look at how much you can buy a $1800 '82 full Campagnolo SR bike and it's about 50%. Look at only production bikes so you don't muddy the debate.
>3) A decent high-school metal-shop student with a modicum of training and
>access to jigs can (and often does) TIG up a frame.

This one really got me. I'll guess you've never TIG welded anything. I triple-dog dare you to try to join two pieces of .049" tubing by TIG without blowing huge holes in it. .049" is also about twice as thick as modern steels. I've got a couple hundred hours in with a TIG torch and I can join thin-walled tubing, but it sure doesn't look near as nice as the stuff coming from Taiwan.
>5) Classic fillet-brazed does not equal TIG-welded. No comparison IMHO.

How aren't they equal, they both join tubing to make something and that's all they're meant to do. TIG welding has been proven to be stronger and lighter than fillet. Fillet does look much better than TIG to my eyes, so at best they're equal.

I have no problems with people thinking things are "better" because aesthetic reasons, that it 100% valid. If it is so though say so come up with facts. Also when you compare a Masi to a Cannondale it's an apples to oranges argument. If you want to compare a Masi do it to some other modern master custom framebuilder.

I think the old adage "Don't knock it 'till you try it" fits so many of the arguments placed on this list it's almost scarry. I've owned or worked on all the modern wonder bikes but I keep coming back to classic steel. Why. . . because I like the way they look, period. Oh and the history involved too. Last year I updated a guys mid-70s Colnago with full 2001 Campagnolo Chorus, except for the Campy retro-friction DT shifters, NR seatpost, and well broken in Brooks saddle. It was really nice and the look was dynamite. I only got to ride it a couple of blocks but the shifting and braking was much more accurate, no more over or under shifting, and much stronger.

enjoy, Brandon"monkey(more of a retro techno weenie)man"Ives Sunny SB, So.Cal