Re: [CR]Language Curmudgitude-Into the GROUND

(Example: Framebuilders:Mario Confente)

Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:38:02 +0000
From: "recycle" <recycle@wmni.net>
To: Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com>, "classicrendezvous@bikelist.org" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: Re: [CR]Language Curmudgitude-Into the GROUND
References: <1c2.3812adf.2b57a4b2@aol.com> <p05200fe8ba4caa4deb63@[10.0.1.31]>
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

At the expence of sounding a bit ignorant, Steve T. mentions "Hogwash" in his tirade on handlebar tipped derailuer-operating cable manipulators. How often do you wash a hog? Was the hog built before 1980? Where are the shifters mounted on the hog? Were any hog's damaged in washing? Is it propper / safe to chamois a freshly washed hog? Thanks for all the info, I never knew how much bike knowledge I lacked before I joined the list. I need a "coke". David, my hog is not washed, Cowie the sheep are dirty too, Oregon

all this time I thought "bar end" was last call

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> At 1:01 AM -0500 1/16/03, NortonMarg@aol.com wrote:
> >In a message dated 1/15/03 1:06:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> >CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com writes:
> >
> >
> >> I pontificated:
> >>
> >> > > "BarCon" was a trademark of SunTour, but given that SunTour is
> >> > > basically defunct, I see no reason for zeal in defending that
> >> >> trademark, so I have no problem with using it as a generic term. At
> >> >> least it's better than calling them "bar ends" since that term is
> >> >> more properly used for the add-on doodads that go on MTB handlebars.
> >> >>
> >> >> On the other hand, I get apoplexy when people speak of "Tipo" hubs!
> >> >> "Nuovo Tipo" is Italian for "New Type." so calling them "Tipo" is
> >> >> equivalent to calling them "Type" hubs. All this does is call
> >> >> attention to the speaker's laziness and ignorance of the Italian
> >> > > language.
> >>
> >> Stevan Thomas replied:
> >>
> >> >Hmmm, they were "bar ends" in the 70s, way before MTBs, and not being a
> >> MTB
> >> >guy, I have no idea what you call those add on handlebar extensions.
> >>
> >> They're called "bar ends." See above.
> >>
> >> >The idea
> >> >of language is to accurately communicate. If you say BarCon, the image
> >> that
> >> >pops into my mind is the SunTour trademarked product. They are two
> >> different
> >> >products with two different names, it's easier to keep a discussion
> >> straight
> >> >using the right terms. It seems lazy not to.
> >>
> >> They are not all that different; same basic device, different brands,
> >> differing about as much as one company's derailers differ from
> >> another's.
> >>
> >> There's a long history of trademarks fading into generic usages, a
> >> normal progression when the legal department of the trademark holder
> >> doesn't zealously defend the trademark.
> >>
> >> >Calling them Tipo instead of Nuovo Tipo is sort of like calling Giuseppe
> >> >Saronni "Beppi". It's a nick name. I know quite a few people who routinely
> >> >say Campag or Campy, instead of Campagnolo. That makes them neither
> >> ignorant
> >> >of Italian, nor lazy.
> >>
> >> Nope, I have nothing against nicknames within reason. Still, calling
> >> them "Type" hubs seems to me to indicate a misunderstanding of the
> >> meaning of the name.
> >>
> >> >Why get apoplexy over that and be lazy about bar end vs. barcon? It's not
> >> >about defending the SunTour TM.
> >>
> >> It's not laziness, it's partly to avoid the confusion of having the
> >> term "bar end" refer to two totally different items; partly 'cause
> >> "BarCon" is such a nice term it seems a shame to allow it to
> >> disappear with the demise of the product that it is a trademark for.
> >>
> >> Sheldon "Don't You DARE Call Me 'Shelly'!" Brown
> >> Newtonville, Massachusetts
> >>
> >
> >Just for starters, Campagnolo made bar end shifters for YEARS before anyone
> >at Suntour even thought of making an improvement. That would be from 1951
> >until at least the late 60s. The were called "Bar ends", or "fingertip
> >shifters". I believe this also pre dated the introduction of those do-dads on
> >MTBs also called bar ends.
>
> I always knew them as "bar-end shift levers" or "bar-end levers."
> Don't recall the phrase "bar end" being used as a noun back in the
> day, only as an adjective. Of course, any old hippie's memories of
> the '60s and '70s are suspect...
>
> I've reluctantly come to accept the use of "shifter" to describe the
> control unit, though it's the derailer that actually does the
> shifting. Since we can no longer refer to all types of controls as
> "shift levers" I've accommodated myself to this previously despised
> usage.
>
> Never liked the store-boughten ones, used to make my own out of Hurét
> or Simplex down-tube shifters. I'd use a clamp-on mount at the end
> of the handlebar, with the lever inside the bar. This setup shifted
> in the opposite direction from standard units, and I found this
> preferable. I could upshift very fast by karate chopping the lever.
>
> >It sounds like your attitude is that whatever you say is right and whatever
> >anyone else says if they disagree with you, is wrong.
>
> This is the nature of opinions. Sometimes things come across a bit
> heavier than intended in typed text, you can't see me wink.
>
> >If that is not what you
> >intend, I suggest you rethink your language. If it is what you intended, may
> >I point out that "pontificate" means "to speak or express an opinion in a
> >pompous or dogmatic way" at least according to Webster's.
>
> Yep, that's what I meant. I know I have a tendency toward pomposity
> on occasion, though I try not to take myself too seriously.
>
> >BTW, I disagree
> >that BarCon is "such a nice term". Just how and why is it better than "bar
> >end". It isn't.
>
> I reiterate that the noun phrase "bar end" is ambiguous. Some people
> use it to refer to bar-end shifters, but the more common usage of the
> term applies to the add-on accessories that go on the ends of upright
> handlebars.
>
> When a customer walks in to my shop and asks what we stock for bar
> ends, most of the time they're using the more common second usage.
>
> >It's just another string of words meant to communicate. You
> >are certainly entitled to your opinions, but your "opinions" aren't
> >necessarily better than anyone elses. You certainly haven't backed it up with
> >anything relevant to support it other than saying that a part that was given
> >the name 20 or 30 years later, is somehow more "proper".
>
> It's more proper because it's less ambiguous and confusing. In my
> own speech, I fluctuate between "barcon" and "bar-end shifter." I
> generally use the term "bar-end shifter" because many younger folks
> have no clue what a BarCon is, while the term "bar-end shifter" is
> self-explanatory. I try to avoid using specialized jargon unless I
> know I'm speaking to someone with sophisticated knowledge who will
> know what I'm talking about.
>
> >That's hogwash.
> >
> >Nicknames, "within reason",seems to be entirely in your own mind. I know full
> >well what Tipo means in Italian, and I am offended by your attitude about my
> >choice to shorten Nuovo Tipo to Tipo for conversational use.
>
> No offense was intended, but I do find that particular usage
> grating...though not as bad as calling tubulars "tubies."
>
> >Who made you the
> >arbiter of right and wrong when it comes to language usage?
>
> I am a self-appointed expert and cycle-lexicographer. See my magnum
> opus: http://sheldonbrown.com/glossary Many people consider my
> opinions on these topics worthwhile.
>
> >
> >I really like having discussions with people on the list. There is give and
> >take. Get a clue, dude, you aren't discussing, you are pontificating.
>
> Everybody has opinions and is entitled to express them. Some people
> like to clutter up their postings with "IMHOs" and other diffident
> qualifiers, but that's not my style. You're welcome to disagree with
> my opinions.
>
> Sheldon "Soi-Disant Expert" Brown
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | In our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: |
> | freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence |
> | never to practice either of them. --Mark Twain |
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
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