Hey gang,
One thing that has not been pointed out about the 4 track bikes, the "rough" one being the Cinelli (I'm assuming we're talking about an older as opposed to newer one) is that the other three are made from much cleaner original parts, most especially the bb shell. What some may call rough in a Cinelli are all of the obvious bastard file marks that one can see ten blocks away on account of the superfine grain silver metallic paint which is very thin. VERY thin. The bb shell starts out as a sand casting from Fischer of Switzerland. Some of the Cinelli lugs are cast also.The reason the other bikes are so clean looking is, yes they are made crisply and well, but also they started in most cases with investment cast parts. The difference, my friends, is at minimum part of why we are here, is it not? The hand work, the labor of the older frames is what gives them character. These people, and those who carry on that way even to this day, had to put in a lot more of themselves than the newer products no matter how clean and refined they appear to you. I have a lot of respect for that. I believe it adds MOJO to these frames. Fact is the frames will ride well even if there are huge gouges around the fork tangs or something. In case anyone is not aware of this, there is about 1 to 2 man hours in the steel lugged frames of the mid 80's. Carousel brazed, digital/pneumatic alignment tables, stamped tube ends, IC fittings, etc. Frames, nearly all the names you love from Europe were built this way. The paint jobs cost about $20 from what I understand. Bikes come out of these operations at the rate of between 100 to 200 per day in some cases. Think Colnago, for example.
Personally, I find no charm whatsoever in most of these bikes. I don't own anything like that myself. They do not interest me.
The older frames speak to me and I can relate to them. I'm the only person on the list who has actually cut and filed an actual Masi fluted seat stay cap. They take a lot of work. Part of the operation is VERY dangerous. A slip on the razor sharp miter of the tube before the cap is on would cut a finger or wrist before you could even feel it. I'm nervous every time I do it. Honestly, comparing the old hand filed lugs and other bits to the post IC era parts is like comparing snow tires to seat stay flutes. They are nearly unrelated. Completely different animal. Sure the Japanese bikes look nice and they reflect a precise and honorable culture; and yet they are not my deffinition of what I prefer. I like to see what appears ro be the precision of the modern parts made out of the old one through the skill and expertise of the framebuilder. That is why I have strayed from OS tubing and IC parts. Obviously I will use them for special occassions, but my focus is keeping alive all that these modern bits forsake. Framebuilding is relativly easy with modern lugs. If you can braze clean you're basically there. But where are the craftsmen who REALLY know how to read what a customer wants and translate that into a beautiful piece of machinery that becomes a part of you; and do it with individuality and style? Nearly gone, my friends.
I can appreciate the Hetchins or the Cinelli from the "golden Era" mainly because there is heart and soul in them. A well made and maintained frame will most likely last forever and give the same degree of performance and enjoyment it always has. The skill it took to make it will be recognized when all others are considered lesser creations. The Japanese handbuilt frames have heart and soul but lose a little bit if built with precision cast pieces, as would a frame built anywhere else in my opinion. There is a way to put heart and soul into a frame with investment cast lugs, but one has to treat them like regular lugs as opposed the the time and effort saving devices they actually are. If they are nicely filed and the profile is beautiful then one is getting pretty close to the old methods. But most of the point of IC stuff is to save time and effort which sucks MOJO right out of them. They also tend to make everyones' frames look too much alike for some reason.
I'm with Harvey on this one. I like my frames with a little elbow grease in them.
Brian Baylis
La Mesa, CA
Spent the day putting the finishing touches on two beautiful Masi
Specials and a nice Rene Herse and Guerciotti.
>
> Roy Drinkwater wrote:
>
> "I have a friend who had a collection of four track bikes, a
> Nagasawa, a 3Rensho, a Basso, and a Cinelli. When one had to go, it
> was the one with the roughest workmanship and finish. That's how I
> got my Cinelli... ;^)"
>
> Last fall I bought a Cinelli (SC road). It is what I've wanted for a couple of decades. To me, Cinelli is a rider's bike, not a looker's bike. An engineer's bike, as it were. To be loved for what it does, not for evidence of hours of polishing and puttering. At some point, the artistry that Richard Sachs, Curt Goodrich, and others routinely do is beautiful because it looks effortless, but it isn't.
>
> Cinelli, the anti-Hetchins... I won't go baroque for a Hetchins (groan).
>
> harvey sachs
> mcLean va