Re: [CR]Chronology of Brooks saddles?


Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:42:15 +0000
Subject: Re: [CR]Chronology of Brooks saddles?
From: Hilary Stone <hilary.stone@blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net>, Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
In-Reply-To: <3E72015A.6DCD232C@earthlink.net>


I have started work on a timeline based on the Brooks catalogues I have and from other retail and trade catalogues tracking the different models from year to year. Some of the details are mentioned in the posts from the archives which Chuck has put together - howeverr there are changes particularly to the saddlebag loops that are not clear even from the catalogues. Brooks Time Line Brooks Wallet No number 1920s Single wire Enamelled B17 Champion enamelled/nickelled, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Champion Sprinter, B19 Four wire B10 size 1, B10 size 2, B10 ladies, B18

Brooks List no 157 1932 Single wire Enamelled B17 Champion enamelled/nickelled, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Champion Sprinter, B74, B19 Four wire B10 Gents, B10 Ladies, B18 Gents, B18 Ladies, B18 Champion, B72 Gents, B72 Ladies

Holdsworthy Aids 1933 Single wire B17 Champion, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Champion Sprinter, B19, B17N Dural, B15 (new) Four wire B10 Champion, B18 Champion

November 1933 Show Champion Duralumin dropped, replaced by B16 Champion

Brooks List no 196 193? Single wire B17 Champion, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Champion Sprinter, B19, B16 Champion Castalumin Four wire B10, B10 Champion, B18 Gents, B18 Ladies, B18 Champion, B72 Gents, B72 Ladies

Holdsworthy Aids 1935 Single wire B17 Champion, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Champion Sprinter, B19 Champion, B16 Champion Castaluminium, B15 (N) Four wire B18 Champion

Brooks List no 230 1936 Single wire B17 Champion, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Champion Sprinter, B17 Champion Flyer, Champion Swallow, B15 Champion, B19N Champion (6 1/2in wide), Champion Lightweight Four wire B18 Gents, B18 Ladies, B18 Champion, B72 Gents, B72 Ladies, B11 Champion, B18 Champion (Nov 1936)

Holdsworthy Aids 1936 Single wire B17 Champion, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Champion Sprinter, B19 Champion, Champion Lightweight, B15 (N) , Swallow, Flyer Four wire B10 Champion, B18 Champion, B18, B11

Brooks List no 265 1938?? 2nd edit Single wire B17 Champion, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Champion Sprinter, B17 Champion Flyer, Champion Swallow, B15 Champion, B19 Champion Narrow (6in wide), B17 Champion Flyweight Flyer, B17 Champion Flyweight Narrow Four wire B18 Gents, B18 Ladies, B18 Champion, B72 Gents, B72 Ladies, B11 Champion

Brooks List no 280 1939 Single wire B17 Champion, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Champion Sprinter, B17 Champion Flyer, Champion Swallow, B15 Champion Standard, B15 Champion Narrow, B19 Champion Narrow (6in wide), B17 Champion Flyweight Flyer, B17 Champion Flyweight Narrow Four wire B18 Champion Gents, B18 Champion Ladies, B16 Champion, B72 Gents, B72 Ladies, B11 Champion

Holdsworthy Aids 1939 Single wire B17 Champion, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Champion Sprinter, B19 Champion, Champion Flyweight Flyer, Champion Flyweight Narrow, B15 Champion Narrow, B15 Champion Standard, Swallow, Flyer Four wire B18 Champion, B11 Champion, B18 Roadster

Brooks List no 400 1948 Single wire B17 Champion, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Champion Sprinter Four wire B10/2, B72 Gents, B72L

Earls Court Show 1948 B27, B37, B47, B57 announced?

Holdsworthy Aids 1950 Single wire B17 Champion Narrow, B15 Narrow, B37 Four wire B72L

Brooks Lightweight Champions B27, B37, B47, B57

Holdsworthy Aids 1951 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B15 Narrow, B27, B37, B47

November 1951 Show Brooks B17 Swallow announced

November 1952 Show Brooks B17F (Special?) announced, B15N reintroduced

Holdsworthy Aids 1953 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B15 Narrow, Special, Swallow

Holdsworthy Aids 1954 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow , Special, Swallow

November 1954 Show Brooks B17 Competition, B15 Flyer announced

Holdsworthy Aids 1955 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow, Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Swallow

Brooks 1956 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Standard, B15 Narrow, B15 Flyer, B15 Swallow Four wire B10/2, B72 Gents, B72L

Holdsworthy Aids 1956 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow, B15 Standard, Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Swallow

Holdsworthy Aids 1957 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow, B15 Standard, B15 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Swallow

Brooks 1959 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition, B17 Competition Campagnola, B15 Standard, B15 Narrow, B15 Flyer, B15 Swallow Four wire B10/2, B72 Gents

Holdsworthy Aids 1959 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow, B15 Standard, B15 Flyer, B17Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Swallow

Ron Kit 1960 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition, B17 Campagnolo, B15 Standard, B15 Narrow, B15 Flyer, B15 Swallow,

Holdsworthy Aids 1960 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow, B15 Standard, B15 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Swallow, B17 Campag Competition

Holdsworthy Aids 1961 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow, B15 Standard, B15 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Swallow, B17 Campag Competition

Holdsworthy Aids 1962 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow, B15 Standard, B15 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Swallow, B17 Campag Competition, B15 Perforated

Ron Kit 1963 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition, B17 Campagnolo, B15 Standard, B15 Narrow, B15 Flyer, B15 Swallow, Professional

Holdsworthy Aids 1963 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow, B15 Standard, B15 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Swallow, B17 Campag Competition, B15 Perforated, Professional

Holdsworthy Aids 1964/5 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Sprinter, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow, B15 Standard, B15 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Swallow, B17 Campag Competition, B15 Perforated, Professional

Holdsworthy Aids 1965/6 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow, B15 Standard, B15 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Swallow, B17 Campag Competition, B15 Perforated, Professional

Holdsworthy Aids 1966/7 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow, B15 Standard, B15 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Swallow, B15 Perforated, Professional

Holdsworthy Aids 1967/8 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B17 Flyer, B15 Narrow, B15 Standard, B15 Flyer, B17 Swallow, B17 Competition Standard, B15 Swallow, B15 Perforated, Professional

Holdsworthy Aids 1969/70 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Champion Narrow, B15 Narrow, B15 Standard, B15 Perforated, Professional

Holdsworthy Aids 1966/7 Single wire B17 Champion Narrow, Professional

Ron Kit 1971 Single wire B17 Standard, B17 Narrow, B15 Standard, B15 Narrow, Professional

Holdsworthy Aids 1976 B17 Professional, B17 Narrow

Hilary Stone, Bristol, England

Chuck Schmidt wrote:
> Paul Williams wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> My weekly questions. Has anyone compiled a chronology of Brooks saddles -
>> model numbers, badges, stamps, rail types, etc.? I know some are dated but
>> what about those which do not have dates? What are the time ranges for
>> certain models?
>
> My Brooks 1908 catalog shows a B 17 Champion. I don't know how much
> earlier that saddle existed but the company dates to 1866!
>
> Some posts from the CR archives (there's tons):
>
> Subject:
> Re: [CR]Brooks timeline
> Date:
> Wed, 22 May 2002 16:17:41 +0100
> From:
> Bob Reid <bob.reid1@virgin.net>
> To:
> <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>
> Sarah,
>
> You are possibly thinking of the searchable UK patent databases
> (accessible
> through http://www.patent.gov.uk) these contain the majority of the
> British,
> European & World patents inc. those for cycling related equipment
> downloadable in pdf format. These relate to the patent No.'s that are
> often
> found on some (but not all) Brooks saddles - really dependant on age.
> Some
> of these can be used to help date the saddle. In answer to a previous
> question regarding a saddle that had the old logo and a number '6826/49'
> on
> the cantle plate is replied (see Chuck I do read the archives :-) ;
>
>> The Brooks logo and the patent application No. indicate that it was
> made
>> between 1949 & 1951 !
>>
>> This patent (No.6826) was applied for March 12, 1949 (/49) and was
> published
>> in full in 1951. Additionally the oval Brooks logo was discontinued in
> 1955.
>> In this instance the year stamp which I think first appeared from the
> mid to
>> late 1950's won't be much help.
>>
>> (the patent relates to electric hot rivetting the of the frame rods
> (saddle
>> rails) to the back or cantle plate).
>
> This was a particularly tricky question, as the number on the Saddle was
> the
> Application Number and not the final patent No. as recorded on the patent
> database and given to Brooks once there application was successfull.
>
> There probably is no single way of easily dating Brooks saddles outwith
> the
> years that the two digit year/letter stamp was used, such was the myriad
> of
> production changes made over time. Anyone trying to put a +/- 2 or 3
> years
> date on a saddlle without the date stamp, needs to look at (a) the style
> &
> cut of the cover (b) the type & wording of the embossed logo on the cover
> (c) any stampings on the underside of the cantle plate (d) any stamp on
> the
> underside of the cover (e) The type / arrangement of the tensioner and
> (e)
> The method of joining the saddle rails to the cantle plate.
>
> I would add that though the 'new' logo appeared in late 54 early 55, many
> saddle continued for some time to be produced with the oval logo.
>
> Maybe a dating article is a good opener for the French & British list.
> One
> component the French did love.....
>
> Bob Reid
> Stonehaven
> Scotland
> ========================================================================
>
> Subject:
> Now: Brooks Was: Can anybody identify this saddle?
> Date:
> Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:26:08 -0800
> From:
> Chuck Schmidt <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net>
> To:
> internet-bob@lists.davin.ottawa.on.ca
> CC:
> classicrendezvous@listbot.com
> References:
> 1
>
>
> I'm not a Brooks saddle expert nor do I play one on television. Having
> said that I will admit to having seen many Brooks saddles so I'll try to
> answer your questions.
>
> The following comments generally pertain to the B17
> line of saddles (swallow, champion, champion narrow, sprint, etc).
>
> There was a steady change in Brooks saddles after World War II to make
> them cheaper to manufacture. Up until 1955 the saddles had an oval logo
> stamped on the flaps, chamfered edges to the flaps, a solid brass name
> plate, solid brass rivets and a "keyed" nose tensioning pin (milled
> channels on each side), incised style-lines (character lines) on the
> upper sides of the saddle, and often were equiped with the splash shield
> glued on the underside.
>
> After 1955, the logo stamped on the flaps was changed to the modified
> trapazoid shape still in use today. Stepped style-lines on the upper
> sides of the saddle were also introduced at this time. The tension pin
> in the nose was changed to an easier to manufacture pin with a small
> bump on one side to keep it from rotating with the tensioning nut. Over
> the years the solid brass rivets were
> changed to split steel rivets, the chamfering was eliminated, the bushes
> in the bag loops on the heel plate were eliminated, and the name plate
> was changed to anodized aluminum and then hot-stamped black plastic.
>
> Also the saddle clamp for use with straight seat posts was simplified by
> eliminating the inner part of the clamp and the nuts and threaded square
> rod were changed to a simple rod and nut design.
>
> Pre-WWII, the bag loops were bushes that pierced the back of the saddle
> but were not attached to the heel plate (cantle) and obviously were not
> very strong or robust. The frame was usually offered in either chrome
> or gloss black paint.
>
> Often if you look closely at the underside of the frame you'll find a
> capital letter and two digits. The two numbers are the last two digits
> of the year of manufacture. The numbers and letters applied to the
> underside of the leather are a manufacturing code that Brooks no longer
> has any records of.
>
> Could anyone else volunteer additional info as far as modifications and
> dates of change to Brooks saddles?
>
> Chuck Schmidt
> South Pasadena, California
> http://www.velo-retro.com (check the Campy Timeline on the site)
> ========================================================================
>
>
> Subject:
> Re: [Classicrendezvous] B15 vs. B17
> Date:
> Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:35:37 EDT
> From:
> "Donald Dundee" <rebour@hotmail.com>
> To:
> CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com, moos@penn.com, TheLocalSpoke@bigfoot.com
> CC:
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
>
> Well, sort of. Firstly, a comment about the B15 line vs the B17 line. The
> B15 line of Saddles, which included the B15 Standard, narrow and Swallow,
> was a lesser grade saddle than the B17. The leather used was thinner and
> generally rejected for inclusion in the B17 line. B15's normally employed
> a
> reinforcement under-patch which was intended to strengthen the
> saddle.This
> patch was not used on the B15 Swallow. Finally, perhaps teh most
> distinguishing feature of B15's was that they used hollow steel rivets.
> You
> can tell by the fact that they are split on the underside.
> The B15 line was produced until 1971, when it was discontinued for
> economic
> reasons within the company.
>
> The B15 Swallow had cutaway sides that were interconnected underneath by
> a
> riveted plate. The B17 Swallow, which had a similar profile to teh B15,
> and
> utilized the same hardware, was an extremely well-crafted saddle. Made of
> heavier leather, it employed an integral stiffener wire, hand stitched
> within the side flaps, and a chrome-plated fastening plate on the
> underside.
> This model was produced until 1970/71, to the best of my knowledge, but
> according to george flegg, shop foreman at Brooks, it was made on a few
> occasions subsequent to 1971 on special order.
>
> Both B17 and B15 lines were available in Black or Brown. Earlier versions
> of
> the B17 Swallow were available with optional "dull" finish. Also, earlier
> versions of the B17 swallow normally used black rails, with chrome rails
> optional.
>
> There were also lightweight versions of the B17 Swallow (model B57) which
> employed stainless steel rails and aluminum cantleplate. these are quite
> rare as bi-metallic corossion often occured at the cantleplate/rail
> location, causing fatigue failure.
>
> My 1970 WB Hurlow shown at Lars Anderson this past season was equipped
> with
> a B17 Swallow with shiny black finish. My 1950's Ephgrave had an earlier
> version of the B17 Swallow with optional dull finish, oval embossed logo,
> and early nameplate.
>
> The last reiteration of the Swallow was in response to demand and did not
> hold a candle to earlier versions. This model, produced from the late
> 80's
> through mid 90's, had the side flaps riveted to an arch-shaped, black
> enameled, steel plate which connected the side flaps together with
> exposed
> copper rivets. The production of this saddle had nothing to do with Mike
> Kone or Bicycle Classics, but rather the company's interest in
> retro-introducing the item. It fell short of expectations.
> ========================================================================
>

>

> Chuck Schmidt

> L.A.

>

> .