[CR]No respect.......

(Example: Framebuilding:Technology)

From: "Tom Martin" <tom@wilsonbike.com>
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
References: <CATFOODMDBfTPQWKtUw00001ded@catfood.nt.phred.org> <008201c309c7$758506a0$514528d5@bruce>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:35:48 -0700
Subject: [CR]No respect.......

CRs: I had turned off the messages for my trip to taiwan and did not reactivate it until today.

So I agree to a certain point. The same can be said of American builders. But what are we talking about here- the sign of the hand of the Euro 'masters' was unsteady and shoddy in most respects if you take an objective view of their work. Bad paint, poor weld penetration, overheating of surrounding metals, out of true frames and forks, etc are all 'signs of the hand' that the Europeans are guilty of too- not just the Taiwanese or Mexicans. If we want to celebrate the sign of the hand then maybe we should look at the artisans in Mexico, India and western China too- all those low end bikes are hand made and not robotically welded since human labor costs are still cheaper than a robotic mig/tig welder doing the same thing. It looks like English/ french/ Italian/ German/ etc frame builders and component makers were producing units of product at most profitable materials/ labor cost moreso than simply plying their craft for the passion of the industry or whatever. Industriousness, yes, but passion to quality? I think not.

I suspect the rubrics of 'copying styles' are the vestiges of racism from the early 80's, and maybe even the 40's. In time it can be corrected, but it is amazing just how pervasive these feelings and thoughts are. Still, I'd rather buy a Bianchi or DeRosa over a Zunow, if only for the familiarity of the name. But if you look at a Zunow, you can totally geek out over the details and craftsmanship, just like Ebisu or anything else coming out of Toyo today.

Tom Martin
Oakland CA


----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Rawson
To: Tom Martin
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 9:26 AM
Subject: You following any of this?



> Archive-URL:
> http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=classicrendezvous.
> 10304.1145.eml
> From: OROBOYZ@aol.com
> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:10:37 EDT
> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: no respect for japanese bike makers ...
>
> I think the premise is fallacious..
>
> I believe top-of-the-game Japanese bikes/frames get great respect
> by those
> with a knowledge of the craft, but Japanese work is viewed
> differently
> because.... the work is different! I could expound on this for
> hours (at the
> Cirque in 9 days!!) but:
>
> - The origination of style is generally European. The Japanese
> do marvelous
> interpretation of those styles but the source is undeniable.
>
> - The Japanese execution is often close to perfect, the "sign of
> the hand" is
> often polished and burnished away...Euro master's did not go this
> far,
> leaving individualistic traces of the work... This is
> interesting to me as I
> think in native Japanese forms, such as Raku pottery and
> calligraphy, the
> "sign of the hand" is retained and appreciated.
>
> - Finally, the top Japanese bike frames have had little exposure
> to many of
> us.. Except for 3Rensho and Zunow, we have had virtually none of
> the "good
> stuff" imported into the USA. I have a Japanese magazine I got
> from Mike
> Melton in the late 1970s and I have studied every page and photo
> over and
> over and I see some really neat builders and products that never
> were seen by
> USA bike folks...
>
> My 2 centz,
> Dale
>
> Dale Brown
> cycles de ORO, Inc.
> 1410 Mill Street
> Greensboro, North Carolina
> USA 27408
> 336-274-5959
> Fax 336-274-6360
> <A HREF="http://www.cyclesdeoro.com">cyclesdeORO.com</A>
> <A HREF="http://www.classicrendezvous.com/main.htm">Classic


----- Original Message -----
From: brucerobbins
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 11:37 AM
Subject: [CR]Originals v replicas


I was trying to think what it is that makes French bikes attractive to me while Japanese bikes hold no interest at all. Maybe it boils down to culture and your ability to identify with it. Sad though it is to admit, there is very little, apart from some Contax cameras, that I would want from Japan. I've no doubt that Japanese replicas are better built than the Singer and Herse originals but I'd take the last two every time over a better built bike from the Far East. I know a bit about and really like French culture whilst Japanese culture does very little for me. That's the only difference I can think of.

Bruce Dundee Scotland

P.S. Don't tell Bob Reid but I just pulled a 1954 Flying Scot with original Simplex rear derailleur, Benelux suicide front, lovely Brampton cottered chainset and Brooks Swallow from the local skip. The downside? There isn't a bit of paint left on the rusty frame and practically everything else is in the same condition! I'll only be able to save the frame, bars, stem, seatpost and chainset but who's complaining!