RE: [CR]some dates please and Asps

Example: Framebuilders:Norman Taylor
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Subject: RE: [CR]some dates please and Asps
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:48:34 -0400
Thread-Topic: RE: [CR]some dates please and Asps
Thread-Index: AcNjPE1qddbJBVsDQc2Lwodyl1ul6Q==
From: "Silver, Mordecai" <>
To: "Classic Rendezvous" <>

Mark Stevens wrote: "Can anyone tell me when Campagnolo introduced their vertical rear dropouts?"

Jobst Brandt claims to have introduced vertical dropouts to Cino Cinelli, then to Tullio Campagnolo in 1960. He had first seen them on Diamant bicycles at the 1960 Olympics in Rome.

Jobst has mentioned this recently in From his post of June 3, 2003:

"Paul McKnab writes: 'On a Merckx steel frame there are two screws built into rear dropouts of the frame that adjust how far in the rear axle will travel when inserted. I know that the screws can be used to adjust the wheel's left/right positioning so that the wheel is true with the frame. Here is the question: the screws can also be used to determine how far in the wheel/axle slides. What determines that correct distance? How far in is too far in and how would I know?'

It was these screws that got me to introduce the vertical dropout to Cino Cinelli and he subsequently to Tullio Campagnolo. Those screws were leftovers from fixed gear riding that the old timers felt was essential to early season training, never thinking that they were doing this because derailleurs were so clumsey and unreliable. By the time the Campagnolo Gran Sport came along the horizontal dropout was an anacronism but it would not go away because there were still a bunch of old timers who swore by them. If we did it, it must have been right.

The longitudinal dropout also was a major cause of Campagnolo axle failures because the jam nut is unsupported in the fore and aft or chain tension direction. Chain tension is about a four times greater force than rider weight because it has about a 2:1 ratio at the crank and is concentrated on one side of the axle. Those dropouts bugged me from the first day I worked with them. I was glad to discover vertical dropouts on Diamant bicycles at the 1960 Olympics. That was the end of axle adjusting screws for me."
>From his post of November 14, 2002:

"I didn't introduce Cinelli and Campagnolo to vertical dropouts in 1960 for nothing...When I saw Diamant (East German) bicycles at the Rome Olympics with vertical dropouts, I made some in the local shop and gave them to Cino Cinelli for my next bicycles. I've been using that kind ever since."
>From his post of May 31, 2002:

"Rear axle failure on Campagnolo freewheel hubs was a common occurrence before vertical dropouts that practically eliminated the problem for those who still ride these antique hubs.

I had the first 'Campagnolo' vertical dropouts made in 1960 after seeing them on east German bicycles at the Olympics. I gave four pairs to Cino Cinelli for frames I had ordered and he gave one set to Tullio, an old friend. The next year we saw the Campagnolo version in production."

Mordecai Silver New York, NY

p.s. What a night it was! No power in New York City, commuters camping out on benches in Bryant Park. No traffic lights -- I was riding my bicycle home at dusk, and it was pretty weird!