Re: [CR]Language Curmudgitude-

(Example: Framebuilding:Norris Lockley)

From: <NortonMarg@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:01:22 EST
Subject: Re: [CR]Language Curmudgitude-
To: CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org


In a message dated 1/15/03 1:06:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com writes:


> I pontificated:
>
> > > "BarCon" was a trademark of SunTour, but given that SunTour is
> > > basically defunct, I see no reason for zeal in defending that
> >> trademark, so I have no problem with using it as a generic term. At
> >> least it's better than calling them "bar ends" since that term is
> >> more properly used for the add-on doodads that go on MTB handlebars.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, I get apoplexy when people speak of "Tipo" hubs!
> >> "Nuovo Tipo" is Italian for "New Type." so calling them "Tipo" is
> >> equivalent to calling them "Type" hubs. All this does is call
> >> attention to the speaker's laziness and ignorance of the Italian
> > > language.
>
> Stevan Thomas replied:
>
> >Hmmm, they were "bar ends" in the 70s, way before MTBs, and not being a
> MTB
> >guy, I have no idea what you call those add on handlebar extensions.
>
> They're called "bar ends." See above.
>
> >The idea
> >of language is to accurately communicate. If you say BarCon, the image
> that
> >pops into my mind is the SunTour trademarked product. They are two
> different
> >products with two different names, it's easier to keep a discussion
> straight
> >using the right terms. It seems lazy not to.
>
> They are not all that different; same basic device, different brands,
> differing about as much as one company's derailers differ from
> another's.
>
> There's a long history of trademarks fading into generic usages, a
> normal progression when the legal department of the trademark holder
> doesn't zealously defend the trademark.
>
> >Calling them Tipo instead of Nuovo Tipo is sort of like calling Giuseppe
> >Saronni "Beppi". It's a nick name. I know quite a few people who routinely
> >say Campag or Campy, instead of Campagnolo. That makes them neither
> ignorant
> >of Italian, nor lazy.
>
> Nope, I have nothing against nicknames within reason. Still, calling
> them "Type" hubs seems to me to indicate a misunderstanding of the
> meaning of the name.
>
> >Why get apoplexy over that and be lazy about bar end vs. barcon? It's not
> >about defending the SunTour TM.
>
> It's not laziness, it's partly to avoid the confusion of having the
> term "bar end" refer to two totally different items; partly 'cause
> "BarCon" is such a nice term it seems a shame to allow it to
> disappear with the demise of the product that it is a trademark for.
>
> Sheldon "Don't You DARE Call Me 'Shelly'!" Brown
> Newtonville, Massachusetts
>

Just for starters, Campagnolo made bar end shifters for YEARS before anyone at Suntour even thought of making an improvement. That would be from 1951 until at least the late 60s. The were called "Bar ends", or "fingertip shifters". I believe this also pre dated the introduction of those do-dads on MTBs also called bar ends. It sounds like your attitude is that whatever you say is right and whatever anyone else says if they disagree with you, is wrong. If that is not what you intend, I suggest you rethink your language. If it is what you intended, may I point out that "pontificate" means "to speak or express an opinion in a pompous or dogmatic way" at least according to Webster's. BTW, I disagree that BarCon is "such a nice term". Just how and why is it better than "bar end". It isn't. It's just another string of words meant to communicate. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but your "opinions" aren't necessarily better than anyone elses. You certainly haven't backed it up with anything relevant to support it other than saying that a part that was given the name 20 or 30 years later, is somehow more "proper". That's hogwash.

Nicknames, "within reason",seems to be entirely in your own mind. I know full well what Tipo means in Italian, and I am offended by your attitude about my choice to shorten Nuovo Tipo to Tipo for conversational use. Who made you the arbiter of right and wrong when it comes to language usage?

I really like having discussions with people on the list. There is give and take. Get a clue, dude, you aren't discussing, you are pontificating.
Stevan Thomas
Alameda, CA