Re: Fw: [CR]RE: Historic bike value - detailed valuation

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To: richardsachs@juno.com
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:20:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Fw: [CR]RE: Historic bike value - detailed valuation
From: "Richard M Sachs" <richardsachs@juno.com>
cc: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
cc: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

public apologies for my post here... i was unaware that tom adams was <also> from jersey. i missed his earlier post on this thread; i assumed that i was the one referred to in s masslands post here. e-RICHIE ex-jersey

On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:57:40 -0500 Richard M Sachs <richardsachs@juno.com> writes:
> snipped:
> <TheMaaslands@comcast.net> writes:
> "To close, I would like to comment on the post of one of my
> illustrious
> fellow New Jerseyans. The fact that this bike is being used to
> reduce
> somebody's taxation is exactly the reason why a truly honest
> evaluation
> should be reached."
>
> ouch.
> it's 'dump on e-RICHIE' night.
> e-RICHIE
> ex-bayonne. a block away from the high school.
>
>
>
>
> > Brett wrote among other very well put points:
> >
> > Brett: > Just because George Mount was "at the head of a chain
> that
> > includes, Boyer, LeMond and Armstrong" should not be confused with
>
> > the fact
> > that George Mount was never in the league of LeMond or Armstrong.
>
> > Even if
> > cycling memorabilia exploded, it is going to take a long, long
> time
> > before
> > you get to George Mount's 1976 Olympic ride on the list of
> > cycling's
> > greatest achievements. George's contributions to US cycling is
> > important.
> > But that doesn't translate to money for George or his bike.
> Perhaps
> > one
> > should inquire to George how many endorsements he has going today
> as
> > a
> > result of his "epic" ride in 1976. I ask you, how much would you
>
> > pay for a
> > bike ridden by the George Mount equivalent from say, Switzerland?
>
> > The guy
> > who paved the way for Koblet, Rominger, and others? My guess is
> > probably not
> > a whole hell of a lot. Further, I feel confident that if I lined
> up
> > the ten
> > best cycling historians in the world, the most you may get is a
> > glimmer of
> > name recognition for George and that is it.
> >
> > Steven: Given that I have lived almost all of my life outside of
> the
> > US, I
> > have never been a flag-waving patriotic American. This does not
> take
> > away
> > from the fact that I recognise that George did make a contribution
>
> > to
> > American cycling. This contribution was however miniscule when
> > compared to
> > so many other people. I have yet to hear of a single cyclist who
> > took up
> > riding due to George's "epic" ride. Compare this to the incredible
>
> > number of
> > people who mention the heroics of LeMond or Armstrong (not to
> > mention the
> > financial rewards that became aparent) as the spur that pushed
> their
> > cycling
> > ahead. I've heard many Americans mention Kelly, Anderson, Boyer,
> > Grewal,
> > Hegg, Vails, not to mention such women as Carpenter, Twigg,
> Martin,
> > when
> > they speak of their cycling idols, but George? Sorry to say not a
>
> > peep. And
> > I was just starting to race and ride seriously at the time of the
>
> > Montreal
> > olympics so at my most impressionable. At that time, only Merckx's
>
> > name
> > elicited envy and awe.
> >
> > >
> > Brett: > A note about the Coppi bike: Bear in mind that the
> average
> > cycling
> > fan in Europe had no clue it was a bad restoration, had
> > questionable
> > provenance, etc. In all of Europe, and this auction was hyped in
> > magazines
> > and was televised, no one came out of the wood work to drive the
> > price up.
> >
> > Steven: I can attest that news of the auction was indeed carried
> on
> > National
> > news in both France and Italy as I observed it firsthand and as
> > Brett
> > states, there was not a single note of discord or doubt about the
> > authenticity of the bike in these reports. I believe that these
> > overly
> > glowing reports of the possible value of the bicycle were the
> reason
> > the
> > armchair collectors never got interested in the bike. Had nothing
>
> > been said
> > about the bike, I believe that it most likely would have sold for
>
> > more
> > money. Why indeed would anybody even dream of buying a bike for
> > $10-12K when
> > the pre-auction hype spoke of $30-50K. As Coppi remains today a
> > national
> > hero in Italy, I don't think that $12K for a 'Coppi' bike is all
> > that
> > far-fetched to the occasional collector, $30K on the other hand is
>
> > quite a
> > different matter. In my books the auctioneers did not do their
> work
> > terribly
> > well. They set an unrealistic price for the bike that was
> offered.
> >
> > >
> > Brett: > The thought that "many are adopting the "don't touch it"
>
> > mindset
> > due to the influence of Antiques Roadshow" is insulting. The
> simple
> > reality
> > is that you can always "paint up" a frame. Once you've painted it,
>
> > it is
> > impossible to go back. Once repainted it isn't original, period.
> > >
> >
> > Steven: I know of not one single collectible item where a restored
>
> > item is
> > worth as much as an item in original weathered finish, including
> > cars.
> > Furthermore, when cars are refinished, they do generally get
> judged
> > on the
> > materials used for the restoration. This means that the fancy new
>
> > paints are
> > not acceptable for top show placing or votes. No Imron's, no
> clear
> > coats...etc. Furthermore, over-restoration of cars is a very
> > American
> > phenomenon. In Europe and Japan, cars regularly get penalised for
> > over-restoration in concours events.
> >
> > >
> > Brett: > It was said: "If George's bike is worth $2,500 as some
> > suggest,
> > that means a contemporary pro bike, available everywhere with no
> > history
> > whatever, with a usable life span a fraction of this bike and
> > absolutely no
> > soul is worth twice as much?" In a word: YES. Pray hard - maybe
> > someday
> > there will be a viable market for historical bicycles. Until then:
>
> > buy them,
> > ride them, and enjoy cycling memorabilia as a hobby rather than a
>
> > component
> > of your investment portfolio.
> >
> > Steven: As I wrote to Brett in an off-list note, at the end of
> > November
> > 2000, I bought the 2000 season De Rosa of Roberto Conti. The same
>
> > bike that
> > was used for his 16th place finish in the Tour de France and his
> > 44th place
> > finish in the Giro. I have a letter of authenticity from both De
> > Rosa and
> > Conti that this was indeed his bike and was one of the 2 bikes
> that
> > he used
> > for the full race season (ie not his training or winter bike!)
> Conti
> > has
> > also compiled more UCI points than all but 2 American riders in
> > history, so
> > he cannot be considered a slouch. Cost of the bike? One third the
>
> > list price
> > of the bike here in the US! I think that this, more than the sales
>
> > prices
> > seen in shops, demonstrates the true value of today's new bikes.
> >
> > To close, I would like to comment on the post of one of my
> > illustrious
> > fellow New Jerseyans. The fact that this bike is being used to
> > reduce
> > somebody's taxation is exactly the reason why a truly honest
> > evaluation
> > should be reached. It is also in the best interst of the already
> > strained
> > budget of the cycling hall of fame (another New Jersey entity) as
>
> > their
> > insurance rates are dictated by the value of the displayed wares.
> As
> > an
> > enthusiast, I would rather see the hall pay premiums on a true
> value
> > than on
> > an inflated value that only goes to the detriment of the state
> > coffers.
> > Especially as the person donating the bike admits to having used
> the
> > bike
> > very well during his ownership.
> >
> > Steven Maasland
> > Moorestown, NJ
> >
> >
> >
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