[CR]standover heigth?


Example: Racing:Wayne Stetina

From: "Jim McCoin" <j.mccoin@comcast.net>
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
References: <CATFOODJagXTi8M19VM00000fd1@catfood.nt.phred.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:50:13 -0700
Subject: [CR]standover heigth?

If you look at the majority of bicycles in use in the world today, you will see about 2" to 3" of seat tube and most of the bars at seat top level. These folks ride most every where, they go to the market, to school, and some to church.

I did question the extended head lug, to me its out of place and looks like an after thought. Dammit! I should have made the seat tube longer.

You have to remember that until about 30 years ago the bikes most of us love, especially the racing bikes, were ridden with about 2" to 3' of post showing and bars about the same height. this formula has worked for over a hundred years and literally millions of bike riders.

I think most of us will admit the trend to extended seat and tiny frames is just so much marketing hype and fashion.

Jim McCoin.

Fremont Ca. o----- Original Message ----- From: <classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 8:18 AM Subject: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 10, Issue 68


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> CR
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Date of English Witcomb? (r cielec)
> 2. Re: Date of English Witcomb? (r cielec)
> 3. Re: Waterford opinions and/or facts
> 4. Cycle Sport Retro Bikes Article (Daniel Swords)
> 5. Re: Can You Tell Me About CONI Cycling Book? (Daniel Artley)
> 6. Re: Re: Ideor--Is it really a Cinelli? ( Wayne Jolly)
> 7. Re: Can You Tell Me About CONI Cycling Book? (jamie swan)
> 8. reminder - SW Ohio vintage bike gathering (Aldo Ross)
> 9. interesting adverts on CR for sale page
> 10. Re: Ideor--Is it really a Cinelli? (Peter Jourdain)
> 11. Head lug extensions_ standover height and fit (heddarr)
> 12. Re: interesting adverts on CR for sale page (wspokes)
> 13. Re: Head lug extensions_ standover height and fit
> (Thomas R. Adams, Jr.)
> 14. Re: interesting advert on CR... Chesini
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:02:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: r cielec <teaat4p@yahoo.com>
> To: Ed and Sandy <eestoye@cinci.rr.com>,
> Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Date of English Witcomb?
> Message-ID: <20031021040243.85337.qmail@web41003.mail.yahoo.com>
> In-Reply-To: <001101c39787$48f300d0$dee8d118@sek2w0j4ah1rjr>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: list
> Message: 1
>
> Thanks for the information.
> I'll send-off an inquiry tomorow.
> Richard Cielec
> Chicago
>
> Ed and Sandy <eestoye@cinci.rr.com> wrote:
> Richard,
> I received a letter from them dated September 22 so this must be very recent news. I may still try to contact them about getting decals. I the letter, Ernie mentioned that Barry was still working.
> Ed
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: r cielec
> To: Ed and Sandy ; classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 11:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [CR]Date of English Witcomb?
>
>
> Responding to my S/N inquiry, another lister informed me the shopo closed just this year.
>
> Seems I'm out of luck. Or, in for an adventure.
>
> Richard
> Chicago
>
> Ed and Sandy wrote:
> Richard,
>
> I wrote to them at:
>
> Witcomb Cycles
> 25 Tanners hill
> London
> SE8 4PJ
>
> tel: 0208-692 1734 (ext 1) day
> 0208-303 5492 (late calls)
>
> What model is your bike? size? color?
>
> Mine is a L'Avenir sized 53.5cm ctc. I rode it for the first as a road bike Sunday (had it as a fixed). I prefer the ride over my Raleigh International. Very smooth over the bumps.
>
> I find the clearance is tight between the chainstay and freewheel (lots of marks on the chainstay from wheel removal)
>
>
> Ed Estoye
> Middletown, OH
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: r cielec
> To: Ed and Sandy
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 10:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [CR]Date of English Witcomb?
>
>
> Ed and Sandy:
>
> Thanks.
> I didn't know Witcomb was still in business or, at least someone associated with it. Do you have any contact inf! ormation ?
> Richard
> Chicago
>
> Ed and Sandy wrote:
> I would suggest 1974. My Witcomb ser. no. is 1039474 and have confirmation
> from Ernie (Barry's father) that it was made in 1974 and shipped to Baker's
> Bikes in Feb. of 1974. I recently had the fork off and noticed that the
> steering tube was marked Bakers bikes Oct. 1974. I've been told that Witcomb
> can be contacted by phone or letter. I was quoted a price for all of the
> transfers at 20 pounds sterling.
>
> The difference in the remaining 5 digits divided by 4yrs suggests about 2500
> frames per year. Does this make sense for a small shop production?
>
> Ed Estoye
> Middletown, OH
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "r cielec"
> To: "Classic Rendezvous"
> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 10:41 PM
> Subject: [CR]Date of English Witcomb?
>
>
> > Can anyone suggest possible date of an Engli! sh made Witcomb?
> > Underside of BB stamped 2040 578
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Richard Cielec
> > Chicago, Illinois
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> >


> To: Ed and Sandy <eestoye@cinci.rr.com>,
> classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]Date of English Witcomb?
> Message-ID: <20031021040756.72504.qmail@web41005.mail.yahoo.com>
> In-Reply-To: <001701c39783$095744d0$dee8d118@sek2w0j4ah1rjr>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: list
> Message: 2
>
> Sounds like a nice riding bike.
> I don't know the model. Graceful long point lugs, no cut-outs.This will be a learning experience.
> Richard Cielec
> Chicago, Illinois
>
> Ed and Sandy <eestoye@cinci.rr.com> wrote:
> Richard,
>
> I wrote to them at:
>
> Witcomb Cycles
> 25 Tanners hill
> London
> SE8 4PJ
>
> tel: 0208-692 1734 (ext 1) day
> 0208-303 5492 (late calls)
>
> What model is your bike? size? color?
>
> Mine is a L'Avenir sized 53.5cm ctc. I rode it for the first as a road bike Sunday (had it as a fixed). I prefer the ride over my Raleigh International. Very smooth over the bumps.
>
> I find the clearance is tight between the chainstay and freewheel (lots of marks on the chainstay from wheel removal)
>
>
> Ed Estoye
> Middletown, OH
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: r cielec
> To: Ed and Sandy
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 10:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [CR]Date of English Witcomb?
>
>
> Ed and Sandy:
>
> Thanks.
> I didn't know Witcomb was still in business or, at least someone associated with it. Do you have any contact information ?
> Richard
> Chicago
>
> Ed and Sandy wrote:
> I would suggest 1974. My Witcomb ser. no. is 1039474 and have confirmation
> from Ernie (Barry's father) that it was made in 1974 and shipped to Baker's
> Bikes in Feb. of 1974. I recently had the fork off and noticed that the
> steering tube was marked Bakers bikes Oct. 1974. I've been told that Witcomb
> can be contacted by phone or letter. I was quoted a price for all of the
> transfers at 20 pounds sterling.
>
> The difference in the remaining 5 digits divided by 4yrs suggests about 2500
> frames per year. Does this make sense for a small shop production?
>
> Ed Estoye
> Middletown, OH
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "r cielec"
> To: "Classic Rendezvous"
> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 10:41 PM
> Subject: [CR]Date of English Witcomb?
>
>
> > Can anyone suggest possible date of an Engli! sh made Witcomb?
> > Underside of BB stamped 2040 578
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Richard Cielec
> > Chicago, Illinois
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> >


> Cc: chad.kayser@verizon.net
> Subject: Re: [CR]Waterford opinions and/or facts
> Message-ID: <97.3f9186a8.2cc60be7@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 3
>
> In a message dated 10/20/2003 8:25:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> josephbstarck@yahoo.com writes:
> CR listees -
> Anybody own a custom Waterford or just a plain ol'
> one? If so, how do you like owning it, and, how's the
> ride?
> -Joe Starck, Madison, Wisconsin
> Joe
> I have owned a Waterford personally for almost 10 years, and like most bikes
> with similar weight, equipment and geometry I can't tell the difference in
> ride between it and many other bikes I own. I got it because we sell them at our
> shops, I've known Richard for a very long time, and wanted something with good
> style, highest integrity, low gimmickry, and flawless execution.
>
> Based on feedback from the ones we've sold, the owners are satisfied.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:00:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Daniel Swords <danielswords@yahoo.com>
> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]Cycle Sport Retro Bikes Article
> Message-ID: <20031021050008.94945.qmail@web14809.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: list
> Message: 4
>
> FGI,
>
> The October issue of Cycle Sport magazine has an article on classic road bikes. The bikes shown are a 1937 L'Auto, a 1966 Mercier, a 1955 L. Bobet, and a 1910 General Lucifer. Not too much information but "technical specs" are given and riding impressions from some current Pros.
>
> Daniel S. Swords
> New Orleans, LA
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:16:52 -0400
> From: "Daniel Artley" <dartley@co.ba.md.us>
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, <skateklister@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Can You Tell Me About CONI Cycling Book?
> Message-ID: <sf94f990.054@co.ba.md.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 5
>
> At the time I got mine it was described as the racing cyclist's "bible".
> It's coined English text was a hoot to read and gave every bit of
> information a cyclist would need, among them, how to handle your sex
> life, how to make your own tubular glue from Laque beetles and really
> quite a bit of good information. Just remember to start your cycling
> training with about 3,000 km in no higher than a 68 inch gear to get
> that spin down. ;^) With a lot of black & white illustrations, it was
> the first place I'd ever seen the Cinelli 'death' pedals and bivalent
> hubs. It only took another thirty or so years before I saw them in
> person. I ought to check out its diet advice to see how timely it is
> now. This was back when coca cola was an energy drink.
>
> Dan Artley
> Parkton, Maryland
>
> >>> "Gary Jacobson" <skateklister@hotmail.com> 10/20/2003 9:37:37 PM
> >>>
>
>
> A while back I bought a fascinating book published in Rome in 1972,
> titled
> CYCLING.
> It cost me $7.50 and it is worth every penny. A very enjoyable
> translation
> from Italian. It was published by C.O.N.I.-Central Sports
> School-F.I.A.C.
>
> Is this a well known book? If not, then it should be.
>
> Interested in your comments.
>
> Gary Jacobson
> Rosendale, NY
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:56:50 -0400
> From: " Wayne Jolly" <wjolly@videowave.us>
> To: <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Cc: Peter Jourdain <pjourdain@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Ideor--Is it really a Cinelli?
> Message-ID: <001f01c397d2$cc023950$62147018@ralkinhmk>
> References: <20031020220318.89877.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com>
> <3F9469D8.F7BE7451@earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 6
>
> Chuck
>
> I agree with you, an Ideor is not a Cinelli and a Masi is not a Gloria. I
> deliberately crafted the "subject header" to generate the thread (guilty).
>
>
> Was there only one distributor in the USA? I know of a few Ideors in
> Toronto, anyone know who imported Ideor to Canada?
>
> The relationship with the MONTROSE
> BIKE SHOP for warranty support is noteworthy, did a similar set-up exist for
> the East Coasters? Anyone buy one on the east coast brand new. I know there
> are a few track bikes around, who sold these back east?
>
> Peter, I wonder if the Ideor operations may have been an operating company
> within "Torello" (perhaps the money folks behind the ex-Cinelli personnel).
>
> Chuck, according to the only official document I have (excellent reprint by
> the way) these were quality bikes, many built with quality Columbus tubing.
> Was it typical for companies to have similar product depth (5 road models, 4
> with Columbus tubing, quality components) in Italy ?
>
> Wayne (being Ideor challenged) Jolly, Toronto Canada
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Schmidt" <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net>
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: 20 October, 2003 7:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Ideor--Is it really a Cinelli?
>
>
> > Wayne Jolly wrote:
> > >
> > >In the November 1977 edition of Bicycling is a very interesting comment
> in
> > >Dick Swann's column "Question Man" on page 64/65.
> > >Mr. H.J.Battjes of Palo Alto, CA writes: I have an Ideor. I am told it is
> > >circa 1960, near Cinelli's factory, a fine frame. Could you elaborate?
> > >Response:
> > >This is one of several makers that have appeared in Milan over the last
> 20
> > >years. Most of these small makers are ex-Cinelli workers; so the stuff
> > >should be very good indeed. Dick Swann
> > >
> > >The response seems to confirm a link to the Cinelli factory. Has anyone
> > >heard about this before? Would anyone agree that the build quality of an
> > >Ideor is comparable to Cinelli?
> >
> > Peter Jourdain wrote:
> > >
> > > Wayne--you raise a very intriguing issue, Ideor as a
> > > possible Cinelli spinoff!
> >
> >
> >
> > I think it is important to bear in mind here that a "spinoff of Cinelli"
> > and Cinelli's ex-employees starting a company of their own are two
> > different things entirely.
> >
> > Faliero Masi worked for Gloria originally. Would you call a Masi
> > bicycle a spinoff of Gloria? Are 7 Cycles a spinoff of Merlin?
> >
> > Chuck Schmidt
> > South Pasadena, CA
> >
> > ..
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]Re: Ideor--Is it really a Cinelli?
> Message-ID: <20031021052453.80139.qmail@web40912.mail.yahoo.com>
> In-Reply-To: <CATFOODenAqpfkNsjUH00000fb1@catfood.nt.phred.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: list
> Message: 10
>
>
>
> Wayne Jolly wrote:
> >
> >In the November 1977 edition of Bicycling is a very
> interesting
> comment in
> >Dick Swann's column "Question Man" on page 64/65.
> >Mr. H.J.Battjes of Palo Alto, CA writes: I have an
> Ideor. I am told it
> is
> >circa 1960, near Cinelli's factory, a fine frame.
> Could you elaborate?
> >Response:
> >This is one of several makers that have appeared in
> Milan over the
> last 20
> >years. Most of these small makers are ex-Cinelli
> workers; so the stuff
> >should be very good indeed. Dick Swann
> >
> >The response seems to confirm a link to the Cinelli
> factory. Has
> anyone
> >heard about this before? Would anyone agree that the
> build quality of
> an
> >Ideor is comparable to Cinelli?
>
> Peter Jourdain wrote:
> >
> > Wayne--you raise a very intriguing issue, Ideor as a
> > possible Cinelli spinoff!
>
>
> Chuck Schmidt wrote:
>
> I think it is important to bear in mind here that a
> "spinoff of
> Cinelli"
> and Cinelli's ex-employees starting a company of their
> own are two
> different things entirely.
>
> Faliero Masi worked for Gloria originally. Would you
> call a Masi
> bicycle a spinoff of Gloria? Are 7 Cycles a spinoff
> of Merlin?
>
> Chuck Schmidt
> South Pasadena, CA
>
>
> Yes, Chuck. Glad you pointed that out. I realized
> after I'd sent the message that the word "spinoff"
> wasn't the right one. It's not that Ideor was possibly
> a spinoff of Cinelli in the sense that "Laverne &
> Shirley" was a spinoff of "Happy Days." I mean, as an
> enterprise with a historical and artistic link to
> Cinelli because it may have been started by former
> employees. What I'd like to get to the bottom of is 1)
> When was Ideor started? 2) By whom? 3) If Ideor was
> started by former Cinelli employees, what role did
> they previously play at Cinelli? How high up the totem
> pole, etc. And there are many more questions. E.g.,
> How many framebuilders did Cinelli employ in, say, the
> early '50's? I have no idea as to the physical and
> numerical scope of Cinelli's framebuilding operations
> back then. I wonder how many ex-Cinelli employees
> capable of soloing were running around Milan in those
> days.
>
> Peter Jourdain
> Whitewater, Wisconsin
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:19:31 -0400
> From: "heddarr" <heddarr@indianaconnect.com>
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: [CR]Head lug extensions_ standover height and fit
> Message-ID: <001601c397de$5ada5da0$149a978d@clymeralliance>
> References: <d3.23ceaca8.2cc5e9b0@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
> MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Message: 11
>
> A fellow listmember observed the extensions on the newer head lugs and asked
> why not have a longer seat tube.
>
> Back in the day at the Schwinn shop fit was determined by the largest frame
> one could straddle. By that method I was a 57 or 58 cm measured c -t - c
> depending on the drop of the bottom bracket and the seat tube angle. Since
> I have aged a bit I have been interested in bigger tires. Add a cm or so
> for big air and the top tube is too close and personal.
>
> My daily rider is a 56cm to accommodate the bigger tires but the handlebars
> ends up lower. Since my back is a little stiffer I switched to a sloped
> stem.
>
> A extension would accommodate all of the above and still allow for a
> traditional stem. I wrench at a modern Schwinn shop occasionally and they
> fit much smaller than in the day. Rivendell uses a slightly sloping top
> tube and an extension. Serotta markets an extension. Any thoughts on
> standover height and fit?????
> Howard Darr
> Clymer PA
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:49:32 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
> From: wspokes <wspokes@penn.com>
> To: themaaslands@comcast.net,
> Classic Rendezvous <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: Re: [CR]interesting adverts on CR for sale page
> Message-ID: <20297016.1066747773147.JavaMail.root@wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Precedence: list
> Reply-To: wspokes <wspokes@penn.com>
> Message: 12
>
> I think I know this Ernesto guy...he's the same gentleman who misled me years ago in my quest for the elusive Egarim bicycle. Luckily I scored one not long after he tried to trick me...jokes on him! I should have my Egarim up and running any day now!
>
> Walter Skrzypek
> Falls Creek, Pa
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: themaaslands@comcast.net
> Sent: Oct 21, 2003 1:32 AM
> To: Classic Rendezvous <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: [CR]interesting adverts on CR for sale page
>
> I haven't looked at the CR for sale site for quite some time and was pleased to see one very interesting posting:
>
> For Sale:
> *Pisscatelo bicycle, model "Goody" , 83 cm seat c-to-c, 23 cm top, circa 1903 as ridden by Eddy Merckx and the Binda brothers, full Crampagnolo Super Record Delrin including Crampy center pull brakes, NOS, ridden only a few times, perfect as-new condition, moderate patina. Asking $1500.00 firm + shipping. Ernesto C. Fortee, Yorktown, Virginia 757-826-0787 bigring135@aol.com 10/16/2003
>
> Who wants to take responsibility for this?
>
> On a more serious side, the last advert for the Chesini seems to offer quite an interesting proposition. For those that don't know the Chesini brand from Verona, it had a very good reputation in Italy in the 80's and was often favorably compared to Colnago. I don't believe they ever exported much so are comparatively unknown outside of Italy.

>

>

> --

> Steven Maasland

> Moorestown, NJ