Re: Dale's admonition: was [CR]Hetchins, Baines, etc

Example: Framebuilding

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:03:33 -0400
From: Joe Bender-Zanoni <>
Subject: Re: Dale's admonition: was [CR]Hetchins, Baines, etc
References: <>


You're missing a distinction. Dale allows people to either name a price or notify of an auction. Sellers are not entitled to merely fish for a price using the CR list or use the list to establish a private auction.

Both outright sales and true auctions are fundamentally fair, efficent, open transactions between real sellers and real buyers. Also offers to sell with a price and notice of auctions have an information value to the hobby as a whole because other people can monitor sales and gather a sense of going prices for items of interest. Offers to sell without a price can lead to many abuses and merely consume bandwidth on the list.

There are a lot of fine distinctions here but Dale needs to make them as he sees fit. People could skirt the rules but few do. Examples would be listing a too high price with an "Or Best Offer" or requests for valuations that are actually offers to sell.

Joe Bender-Zanoni
Great Notch, NJ

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: Dale's admonition: was [CR]Hetchins, Baines, etc

> Dale,
> I have no interest in these bikes beyond trying to ensure that this guy, who
> only wants to sell off his late father's collection without having any sort of
> knowledge base, is not ripped off by any of the sharks out there-including our
> own CR shark(s) here in the UK or anywhere else.
> I agree wholeheartedly with your policy of always naming a price when
> mentioning items for sale but, since this policy is daily flouted when it
> comes to stuff on offer on Ebay, I didn't think another transgression would
> matter too much.
> If it is wrong to mention Tim Lawrence's bikes without a price (which I accept
> it is), then there is no way on earth you can justify Ebay outings on the
> list. They are in practically every digest and none of them has a firm price.
> The biggest transgressors of the list rule must be those people who out their
> own Ebay auctions. If that isn't "maximising their personal gain via a CR
> fishing expedition" I don't know what is.
> Let's ban all Ebay outings as well, then. Please post something to that effect
> just so that we all know where we are coming from. Presumably Lou Deeter and
> Jerry Moos will back me in that view.
> Bruce
> Dundee
> Scotland
> wrote:
> > In a message dated 10/22/2003 6:07:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > writes:
> >
> > <<
> > I can't remember seeing anything about this on the list before but there is
> a
> > chap in England who is selling his late father's bike collection either as
> a
> > single lot or individually. There are a few 1930s Hetchins, a Baines
> > International TT, Viking Ian Steele, Hill Special track, Ellis Briggs,
> > Humber,
> > Bates, Penine, Holdsworth, Carlton and quite a few Sturmey hubs including
> > some
> > alloy ones.
> >
> > Not being a bike collector, the seller is looking for offers and has
> already
> > had some good ones. Unfortunately, the prices are out of my range but some
> > well-heeled CR members might be interested and, indeed, some have already
> > contacted him.
> >
> > The seller, Tim Lawrence, said everyone who had been in touch with him had
> > been very open and honest about their valuations of the bikes except for
> one
> > UK CR member, who shall remain nameless, who tried to tell him that the
> bikes
> > weren't worth much at all. Shame on you!
> >
> > I can't vouch for Tim personally but I had a blether with him on the phone
> > and
> > he seems a genuine guy.
> >
> > There are pictures of the bikes and more contact info at:
> >
> >
> > Bruce
> > Dundee
> > Scotland >>
> >
> >
> > Bruce and all:
> > I also told this fellow what range I thought the bikes would sell for and I
> > also told him they could not be listed nor mentioned on the CR list until he > established a price for them. He certainly has had a lot of voluntary input
> thus
> > far, so I assume he is conducting an effective highest-bidder auction of the > bikes, precisely what I do not want on the CR! And you, Bruce, have now
> aided
> > him in that very cause....
> >
> > In regard to value, I would submit that is a hard issue as while these are
> > old and interesting bikes, they are poorly repainted in many cases and those > would represent a large investment of time and money to do again properly.
> Of
> > course, ones man's trash is another's bounty.. (or whatever that phrase
> is..)
> >
> > In any case, please let these persons "wanting to establish a fair value"
> > (meaning maximize their personal gain via a CR fishing expedition) do it
> > somewhere else. eBay does that every day.
> >
> > In any case, please mind the CR list rules and do not post about bikes and
> > components for sale without including a set price..
> >
> > Thanks
> > Dale
> >
> >
> > Dale Brown
> > List owner
> > Greensboro, NC
> --