Re: [CR]Framebuilding as a craft

(Example: Production Builders:Cinelli)

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:35:24 -0400
From: "Joe Bender-Zanoni" <joebz@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [CR]Framebuilding as a craft
To: Dennis Young <mail@woodworkingboy.com>
References: <BBB56D09.2CA1%mail@woodworkingboy.com>
cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

This is very interesting. Some people persevere (Brian Bayliss, Peter Wiegle, Richard Sachs). Some people sort of burn out after reaching the top but apply the craft in a way that builds an effective bike and yields a better living, presumably. (Bruce Gordon). Some people are workmanlike from the get go (G. Marinoni). Many people leave the craft having reached various levels (Jim Redcay, Dennis Sparrow). Some people run out of time and who knows where the pinnacle was (Mario Confente, McLean Fonvielle).

Joe Bender-Zanoni
Great Notch, NJ


----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Young
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 8:55 PM
Subject: [CR]Framebuilding as a craft



> > What defines a craftsman is the whole product that's produced
> > not just how pretty his filework is ... the lugs are just
> > a small part of the whole.
> >
> > Frame design counts. Brazing skill counts. Materials used
> > counts.
> >
>
> What defines a craftsman?
>
> As Brian stated, a artist and or craftsman needs to grow within the context
> of their work. The degrees of effort that go into achieving this can't be
> overlooked. Some craftsman say that they don't want to change, but are
> content to do the same thing over and over. Some qualify it further, to say
> that by perfecting their methods, and sticking with the same production, it
> allows them to create more cheaply for the masses. I don't respond to this
> lightly, but I can't much buy the logic. Those olden days, when people had
> the minds to honestly do this, are sadly over, and in their place has become
> lazyness, or the damn "fear factor", by which I mean the hesitation to step
> away from what one is known for and has been successful at, to try something
> new. I believe that it is now more human to strive for improvement.
> "Improvement" may not be some big thing that stands up and and slaps you in
> the face, it could be one millimeter one way or the other that it took years
> to understand. Religious texts say that the Buddha sat in front of a blank
> wall for seven years, then the "new and improved" man went on to appear to
> act like a idiot. My point is that it can be premature to simply draw
> inferences from looking at finished products. In the Buddha's case, it
> might have only been other "idiots" who could see what a monumental
> accomplishment had been achieved. There are indeed examples of great work,
> as Brian elicites in his thought provoking post, but doing great is a
> relatively easy accomplishment for some gifted (lucky) people. What's in
> the heart, and what about the amount of struggle that might be taking place,
> even if a completed work somehow appears lesser in degrees in comparison to
> some? Without knowing these factors, can you completely measure
> achievement only through the usual standards? Handmade work is the
> embodyment of many things. There are indeed sacrafices that have to be
> made to adhere to a concept that inspires someone to do it everyday. Not
> everyone has the luxury of a patron(s). Craftsman who feel the need to
> critique other peoples work, is it often because of some inadequacy that
> they perceive within themselves? Sure, sometimes a young person needs to be
> slapped upside the head, but even for the experienced, there can be twists
> and turns, sometimes blind alleys, but hopefully it all goes toward the
> direction of a better end, both for the maker and the customer. What is
> chosen to put in front of the public, the successes, the partial successes,
> the beginnings of a concept that may come to fruition only much later or is
> abandoned, there may not be a way to draw clear conclusions with regard to
> the comparative validity of these accomplishments or lack of, without
> knowing much more than what might be perceived by only looking at the
> finished product. There is often a bigger picture, and it can be very
> complex.
>
> My two yens worth .....
>
> Dennis Young
> Hotaka, Japan
>
>
> > What defines a craftsman is the whole product that's produced
> > not just how pretty his filework is ... the lugs are just
> > a small part of the whole.
> >
> > Frame design counts. Brazing skill counts. Materials used
> > counts.
> >
>
> > Neill,
> >
> > Very well said.
> >
> > One other tidbit I've noticed about bikes. A lot of what you get out of your
> > frame depends on how you set it up. I have several vintage Italian road
> > bikes that are set up as "city bikes" pretty much the way ones sees retired
> > racing iron being ridden by old men around the cafes of Europe. There are
> > lots of possibilities for bikes and only a very small percentage of them are
> > for racing. My racing days are over; I now ride strictly for fun and to be
> > with my friends. I enjoy the bike and the experience every single time.
> >
> > Parts selection can make a drastic difference in how a bike feels when you
> > ride it. A drastic example of this came to me when I set up my trike with a
> > double chainring and a 7 spd FW. It was very hard to ride and wasn't very
> > much fun. Then I decided to outfit it with a triple chainring and a little
> > lower gearing on the FW. Suddenly the bike was a blast to ride and I can
> > actually get it going pretty fast. It's still a chore to ride but it is fun
> > now that it has proper gearing for my needs. I was beginning to consider
> > selling it until I "rediscovered" it.
> >
> > Brian Baylis
> > La Mesa, CA
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Neill Currie <neill1234@yahoo.com>
> > To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:28 PM
> > Subject: [CR]Frame quality issues.
> >
> >
> >> Well, thought I would just chime in here, having
> >> read the thread about "what makes for a great
> >> frame and why".
> >>
> >> I have frames that are made extremely well, in my
> >> opinion. Sometimes their aesthetic appeal jives
> >> well with my personal preferences, sometimes not.
> >> Sometimes these bikes ride very nicely,
> >> occasionally not. I have a frameset I made myself
> >> 18 years ago: super tight clearances, all
> >> internal cable routing.......the ride is tight,
> >> the aesthetic appeal to me is great, yet it is
> >> not a bike I would want to ride for more than,
> >> say, 50 miles.
> >>
> >> I have frames that are made not so well also.
> >> Sometimes though, these not only look very
> >> pleasing to my eye, but they have a very special
> >> ride, often for some particular set of reasons
> >> combining to produce that ride. I am thinking of
> >> an example in this case: a 1950's Peugeot. Not
> >> made with any great care or attention to detail,
> >> yet the combination of generous fork rake, pencil
> >> stays, long wheelbase etc, contribute to a
> >> magical ride that one would want to ride many
> >> extra miles on........and what better attributes
> >> could one get from a bike, I ask? It also cost me
> >> just $25.
> >>
> >> I have a bike that fits in a 3rd category too:
> >> pretty nicely made, though not GREAT. The
> >> downtube cracked and needed replacement after 3
> >> years of reasonably heavy use, and has been fine
> >> since. The paintjob and attention to detail on
> >> this bike attracts attention from others like
> >> almost no other bike however........and it has
> >> the most lively ride, with cat-like acceleration.
> >> This bike stands out in this respect.
> >>
> >> So, I say "love them all", at least the ones that
> >> you feel are deserving of your love, for all
> >> sorts of reasons. In my case there seem to be
> >> many more reasons to like different bikes for all
> >> sorts of different reasons, than there are
> >> reasons for being too discriminating. Appeal,
> >> interest, intended use, quality of construction,
> >> etc.....are all valid reasons for liking and
> >> preferring certiain bikes. Just don't overlook
> >> the real gem however, just because it doesn't fit
> >> your mindview or prejudice.