Re: [CR]NOS Carrera frames - tubing used

(ME)
>
> > They will
> > rarely know, because the industry doesn't want them to make educated
> > choices."

>
> Do you have any factual basis for your statement?
>

As in some secretive internal company memos, no, of course not. The "facts" are evident in the products that are available, the way they are marketed in the retail forum and the popular media (magazines that cater to high-end bikes), and the reality of what those products offer when compared honestly to the supposedly "low-end" products. But since very few bike riders are even slightly technically savy, it's easy to mold their beliefs about bike characteristics and their significance.

> What industry players are you referring to?
>

Without fail, every single large brand of bike in the world, and nearly all others. There is certainly no line in the sand I can draw, but I feel like any manufacturer that approaches the volume where delegated processes occur (more work than one controling person can oversee) and there is little direct interaction with the end customer, this is roughly where making bikes becomes essentially pure business. The owners/operators don't have a stake in making satisfied individual customers, they have a stake in keeping the business going. And it's less expensive to make what's best for your business, and market it to the customer, than to actually make what's best for most customers, and try to explain to them why it's the best choice. It's not personal, and I don't begrudge them the desire to have profitable businesses. But this is what creates the need to "craft" the image of your product. You have to convince the customer that your higher priced, and higher margin, products, and your continually developed newer products, are better. Otherwise there will never be enough sales to even survive, let alone prosper.

But that doesn't mean that I, or others, have to fall for it. The mentality that the first post indicated, the amazement that any builder would stoop to wasting time/labor/talent in making frames from such as bottom-feeder tubset as Cromor. That is exactly what they want you to think. That is what generates the desire to pop the bigger $$$ for the EL/OS, Excel, 853,etc bikes. Those frames might have some subtle benefits, for some riders, but for the vast majority of riders the difference is meaningless, even with regard to weight. There is NOTHING wrong with a Cromor tubset, and executed by a quality builder would make an exemplary bike for 99% of the riding public. But nearly all of that 99% thinks the same as that guy; that Cromor is spit. And it's because of 1) the way bike marketing is done, 2) most bikes people see, made from Cromor, are lower-end. Not because they have to be, or because the tubset is crap, but because the makers don't want them to be nice. Otherwise, many more buyers would have less or no reason to spend on the more expensive, or new, models.
> I think you are giving the "industry" way more credit for acting cohesively
> than it deserves,
>

I didn't mean it that way. I agree that there is probably very little collective thinking in this regard. It's more a matter of business in the modern world of bikes has to be done that way, or you will not survive. It's what primarily drove me to doing little but service. Frame design and manufacturing, componentry, wheels. It's all become a giant shark feeding frenzy. There's all this forced innovation to keep getting sales. It has done virtually nothing to truly enhance cycling, but almost everyone thinks it has, and now they can't go back. So many perfectly good bikes and products that people won't give a thought to because they look pale next to the new glitter. I truly believe that the industry as a whole, though not intentionally acting in concert, doesn't want people to know that Cromor frames can be as good as UltraFoco frames, and better in many ways, or that 32' MA-2 wheels are really as good as (insert flashy aero wheel of the week here), and often better. That would essentially eliminate most of the bike industry high-end sales of the last 10 years.

Would we really be any worse off?

Jon Schaer
Columbus, OH