I got Ergo, but remember I am the least technical person on the whole list! Tom Sanders ----- Original Message ----- From: classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 10:47 PM Subject: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 12, Issue 82
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: tullio sticker (Fred Rafael Rednor) 2. Re: Re: Ideor--Is it really a Cinelli? (henox) 3. Ideor/Cinelli (henox) 4. Re: Hetchins frame/fork repair (Roy H. Drinkwater) 5. Re: NOS Carrera frames - tubing used (kim klakow) 6. OT - advice needed (ADP) 7. Wanted-Pictures of Bikes, Specific Color 8. Re: Airline Worries 9. Now: Early Campagnolo brake lever Was: Question about an Ebay auction (Chuck Schmidt) 10. Re: Tubing used and stickers 11. looking for Tom Ward 12. Re: Now: Campagnolo Sport crank Was: tullio sticker (Joe Bender-Zanoni) 13. Re: umezawa and other japanese (henox) 14. Mario Masi ?????? (nick zatezalo) 15. olimpic 16. Re: NOS Carrera frames - tubing used (Jon Schaer) 17. Re: Mario Masi ?????? (Chuck Schmidt) 18. Announcing the Cirque '04 Theme!
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:21:43 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Rafael Rednor <fred_rednor@yahoo.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]tullio sticker Message-ID: <20031223002143.6941.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <122220032329.7861.1c6f@att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 1
Burl, To quote the '73 Atala catalogue, the Tullio material is "high tensile seamless tubing". All the later versions of the Gran Prix model (at least all the ones that I used to see) had these stickers. This was teh Gran Prix that used stamped dropouts instead of the forged Campy 1010s and Valentino derailleurs instead of Nuovo Record. There still must be hundreds of these bikes in NYC, since one of the importers of Atala in those days was Stuyvesant/Corso. Were these bikes common is LA, as well? On the other hand, your's would be the first of these things I've heard about that used the steel Campy crankset. Even the earlier version of the Gran Prix (i.e. the one with Columbus SP tubing, Campy 1010s, NR deraillers and NR hubs) used a cottered Magistroni crank. But then, it is reputed that this crankset was made for Campy by Magistroni. I don't know about that for sure but I certainly do wish I had one for my Atala. Best regards, Fred Rednor - Arlington, Virginia
> Maybe someone on the list might know the answer to this one;
> I have an atala
> from the seventies that has a sticker that says genuine
> Tullio steel tubing;
> does this mean Tullio Campagnolo built this bike? maybe he
> had a stash of
> tubing and he put his sticker on each frame set? I showed it
> to Jim
> Cunningham at Cylcart and he said he had never seen this
> decal before but
> that my atala had a rare steel Campy cotterless crank.
> Thanks,Burl Simon in
> Los Angeles where it is a balmy 71 degrees
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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:27:58 -0800 From: "henox" <henox@icycle.net> To: "Peter Jourdain" <pjourdain@yahoo.com>, "Wayne Jolly" <wjolly@videowave.us>, "Jay Sexton" <jvs@sonic.net>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Ideor--Is it really a Cinelli? Message-ID: <000f01c3c9b4$c9168b60$b9f756d1@pavilion> References: <20031020220318.89877.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2
Subject: [CR]Re: Ideor--Is it really a Cinelli?
Peter wrote:
> Wayne--you raise a very intriguing issue, Ideor as a > possible Cinelli spinoff!
Peter:
I believe there is no connection at all between Cinelli and Ideor other than that both Italian brands began to be imported into California at about the same time period of mid 1950's to early 1960's. Montrose imported Ideor and Cupertino imported Cinelli. End of story (I think).
Hugh Enox La Honda
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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:33:15 -0800 From: "henox" <henox@icycle.net> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]Ideor/Cinelli Message-ID: <002001c3c9b5$85b98f60$b9f756d1@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 3
Sorry for the out of date response to a thread from back in October. Please ignore it.
My mail program keeps mixing old and new messages for some reason which caused me to respond to an old one as if it were new.
Hugh Enox still in La Honda
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 19:38:30 -0500 From: "Roy H. Drinkwater" <roydrink@ptd.net> To: classic list <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]Re: Hetchins frame/fork repair Message-ID: <a05200f01bc0d3df7c767@[192.168.1.1]> In-Reply-To: <GAHMJDKHNKPKIHAA@mailcity.com> References: <GAHMJDKHNKPKIHAA@mailcity.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 4
Greg wrote: > Yesterday... crash with my D.M. Hetchins... the frame appears >okay... The fork, however, is pretty wamperjawed. Do ya'll have any >suggestions...
I'd get a Diadrant fork* from a Bates! It would go well with the curly stays.... ;^)
Roy "Straight-laced" Drinkwater Lititz, PA
*see http://www.classicrendezvous.com/
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 02:00:21 +0100 (MET) From: "kim klakow" <Akimbo71@gmx.net> To: Fred Rafael Rednor <fred_rednor@yahoo.com> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]NOS Carrera frames - tubing used Message-ID: <10717.1072141221@www62.gmx.net> References: <20031222181543.50766.qmail@web11901.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 5
Hi Fred,
" At least that's how it _used_ to be..."
I`m sure Matteo and a few of the lads in GB, which we count to Europe but funnily they don`t, would agree with me that it still is that way.
Rollido, kim klakow berlin, germany Old Europe
> Dave,
> Perhaps you're looking at this frame from the wrong
> perspective. European manufacturers were once very adept at
> building beautiful frames that were still inexpensive. Even
> frames built from mild steel or plain gauge chrome-moly tubing
> might have beautiful chrome, paint and nicely cut lugs.
> From that perspective, using Cromor is a step up. It might
> seem silly from our vantage point but, for whatever the reason,
> that's how they often did it on the Continent. In '83 I spent
> nearly a year touring Europe by bicycle. I saw all sorts of
> things related to cycling that a typical American would
> consider to be false economies.
> But remember that a European doesn't have to go through the
> same transformation that you or I do in order to be a cool
> Euro-cyclist. He just goes out the door, hops on whatever
> ancient piece of iron he's inherited from his ex-racer uncle
> and rides. At least that's how it _used_ to be...
> Ciao (See, I'm still trying to transform myself),
> Fred Rednor - Arlington, Virginia
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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-- Kim Klakow Diplom Grafik Designer Akimbo71@gmx.net +49172-1786481
+++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More +++ Neu: Preissenkung für MMS und FreeMMS! http://www.gmx.net
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:36:14 -0500 From: ADP <aphillips9@mindspring.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]OT - advice needed Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031222203142.044037d0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 6
Will someone who has modern Campagnolo Ergo stuff and a lot of riding on it email me please? I need some information : ) - preferably from someone w/o a financial interest!
Ann Phillips, Decatur GA
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:46:58 EST From: LouDeeter@aol.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Wanted-Pictures of Bikes, Specific Color Message-ID: <45.1da3933.2d18f892@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7
Does someone have a bike with gold or silver blue with red decals? If so, could you send a JPG to me off-list? Thanks. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:51:09 EST From: ABikie@aol.com To: Peter@CaneCreek.com, wa2vuy@mindspring.com, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Airline Worries Message-ID: <a0.1cf1914.2d18f98d@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 8
In a message dated 12/22/2003 8:43:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, Peter@CaneCreek.com writes: travel frequently with an S & S coupler Ti frame with 650 C wheel's and it does fit into a normal, airline legal suitcase. The 650's make the difference Works great!
Peter Gilbert Cane Creek Cycling Components Fletcher, NC 800-234-2725 ext: 316 Peter Whose case is it? We use 700s in the 26/26/10 and 12" cases for our classic travel bikes
Larry Black Mt airy, Md
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:54:32 -0700 From: Chuck Schmidt <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Now: Early Campagnolo brake lever Was: Question about an Ebay auction Message-ID: <3FE79220.2E8E3271@earthlink.net> References: <004701c3c7c5$5f4a5ea0$4c0890d8@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Reply-To: chuckschmidt@earthlink.net Message: 9
Tom Hayes wrote:
>
> There is an auction for what is billed as "1st generation Campagnolo brake levers." What distinguishes these brake levers from other more common Campagnolo NR brake levers? To my untrained eye, these appear the same as other brake levers.
>
> http://ebay.com/
First generation Record brake levers: .Body is silver instead of dark anodize .Body has different contour on underside .Top of lever cut at 90° (makes them "long reach") .Contour (curve) of lower part of lever different .Back of lever different contour (more open "U" shape) .Circular hole in back instead of "U" shaped hole for feeding cable through pivot in lever .No washer under nut that clamps lever body to bar
Chuck Schmidt South Pasadena, Southern California
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:06:38 EST From: NortonMarg@aol.com To: WBINGHAM@imf.org, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Tubing used and stickers Message-ID: <ad.37a3ed00.2d18fd2e@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 10
In a message dated 12/22/03 2:18:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, WBINGHAM@imf.org writes:
> Why would a small builder feel the > need to identify a frame with certain tubing stickers, when he clearly > didn't want to use all the same tubes? A larger production concern > might have "advertising" reasons, but not a small builder. This > situation clearly varies, so it doesn't seem that it could be just > "tradition". >
A small builder might want to put a certain sticker on a frame because that's what many customers expect. It's funny how buyers read a magazine article, believe they've found "the answer" and end up with a bunch of silly expectations. Stevan Thomas Alameda, CA
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:14:50 EST From: NortonMarg@aol.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]looking for Tom Ward Message-ID: <bc.41cfb18e.2d18ff1a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 11
Tom, Please contact me about the rims I shipped to you. Emails come back as undeliverable. Stevan Thomas Alameda, CA
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:24:53 -0500 From: Joe Bender-Zanoni <joebz@optonline.net> To: chuckschmidt@earthlink.net, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Now: Campagnolo Sport crank Was: tullio sticker Message-ID: <00ae01c3c8fb$f30a7080$6400a8c0@jfbender> References: <122220032329.7861.1c6f@att.net> <3FE77674.163605B@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Precedence: list Message: 12
Maybe rather than "rare" the better description is that it was made for a relatively short time. Perhaps 3 years?
I also suspect the crank arms cost every bit as much to make as Record arms. Never saw a set retail, only OEM. The three arm GS alloy crank that followed is neat too.
Joe Bender-Zanoni Great Notch, NJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Schmidt" <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 5:56 PM Subject: [CR]Now: Campagnolo Sport crank Was: tullio sticker
> Burl Simon wrote:
> >
> > (cut)I showed it to Jim
> > Cunningham at Cylcart and he said he had never seen this decal before,
but
> > that my atala had a rare steel Campy cotterless crank.
>
>
> That's Campagnolo's econo crank from the early 1970s and not what I
> would call rare actually.
>
> Campagnolo Timeline (www.velo-retro.com):
>
> "1971 Catalog #16 Supplement is printed in November for the year-end
> trade shows.
> Included are the Superleggero pedals (black anodized aluminum cages),
> Superleggero seat post (no fluting, thinner wall, aluminum support
> cradle, drilled pivot, originally with engraved graduated scale), and
> plastic Superleggeri pumphead are introduced. Also the patented toothed
> washer (rondella dentata) for the Record sidepull brakes, along with the
> steel Gran Turismo rear derailleur, Velox low-cost derailleur, Elefante
> control lever, the steel three-pin Sport cotterless crankset, Sport
> headset (only two wrench flats) and Allen seatbinder bolt."
>
> Chuck Schmidt
> South Pasadena, Southern California
> cloudy and 65°
>
> .
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> http://www.bikelist.org/
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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 18:29:59 -0800 From: "henox" <henox@icycle.net> To: <dbrk@troi.cc.rochester.edu>, <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]umezawa and other japanese Message-ID: <005001c3c9c5$d49ff960$b9f756d1@pavilion> References: <200312221833.hBMIXLfk011446@troi.cc.rochester.edu> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 13
Subject: [CR]umezawa and other japanese
Douglas wrote:
> Okay, I'm intrigued by this Umezawa frame. I currently have a Nagasawa on > order > and suffer from a major jones for this sort of exquisite Japanese work. Is > there a list somewhere of > other renowned Japanese builders, other than the CR listing? I confess > never to have heard of Umezawa before.
I could probably pull one together but what criteria would I use and how much detail would you need about each builder?
Hugh Enox La Honda
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:45:12 -0500 From: "nick zatezalo" <nickzz@mindspring.com> To: "CR List" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]Mario Masi ?????? Message-ID: <410-220031222324512843@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Reply-To: nickzz@mindspring.com Message: 14
Is this in fact a Mario made GC?
If so...how can one tell conclusively?
Mario Christmas !!! Nick Zatezalo Atlanta,Ga
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:04:26 EST From: TonyFNitro@aol.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]olimpic Message-ID: <15d.2a6218a3.2d190aba@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 15
greetings
is anyone familiar with olympic brake levers,they look like mafacs with brown half hoods?
thanks robbie fellows long beach,ca.
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:32:24 -0500 From: "Jon Schaer" <jschaer@columbus.rr.com> To: <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]NOS Carrera frames - tubing used Message-ID: <01a901c3c905$619b6820$55bdd018@columbus.rr.com> References: <1e5.160705f5.2d176874@aol.com> <010e01c3c81c$d7cece40$55bdd018@columbus.rr.com> <01a201c3c971$195fc4e0$42cef7a5@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 16
This has seemed to digressed OT, so maybe we should go off-list?
----- Original Message ----- From: "henox" <henox@icycle.net>
(ME) > > > They will > > rarely know, because the industry doesn't want them to make educated > > choices."
> > Do you have any factual basis for your statement? >
As in some secretive internal company memos, no, of course not. The "facts" are evident in the products that are available, the way they are marketed in the retail forum and the popular media (magazines that cater to high-end bikes), and the reality of what those products offer when compared honestly to the supposedly "low-end" products. But since very few bike riders are even slightly technically savy, it's easy to mold their beliefs about bike characteristics and their significance.
> What industry players are you referring to? >
Without fail, every single large brand of bike in the world, and nearly all others. There is certainly no line in the sand I can draw, but I feel like any manufacturer that approaches the volume where delegated processes occur (more work than one controling person can oversee) and there is little direct interaction with the end customer, this is roughly where making bikes becomes essentially pure business. The owners/operators don't have a stake in making satisfied individual customers, they have a stake in keeping the business going. And it's less expensive to make what's best for your business, and market it to the customer, than to actually make what's best for most customers, and try to explain to them why it's the best choice. It's not personal, and I don't begrudge them the desire to have profitable businesses. But this is what creates the need to "craft" the image of your product. You have to convince the customer that your higher priced, and higher margin, products, and your continually developed newer products, are better. Otherwise there will never be enough sales to even survive, let alone prosper.
But that doesn't mean that I, or others, have to fall for it. The mentality that the first post indicated, the amazement that any builder would stoop to wasting time/labor/talent in making frames from such as bottom-feeder tubset as Cromor. That is exactly what they want you to think. That is what generates the desire to pop the bigger $$$ for the EL/OS, Excel, 853,etc bikes. Those frames might have some subtle benefits, for some riders, but for the vast majority of riders the difference is meaningless, even with regard to weight. There is NOTHING wrong with a Cromor tubset, and executed by a quality builder would make an exemplary bike for 99% of the riding public. But nearly all of that 99% thinks the same as that guy; that Cromor is spit. And it's because of 1) the way bike marketing is done, 2) most bikes people see, made from Cromor, are lower-end. Not because they have to be, or because the tubset is crap, but because the makers don't want them to be nice. Otherwise, many more buyers would have less or no reason to spend on the more expensive, or new, models.
> I think you are giving the "industry" way more credit for acting cohesively > than it deserves, >
I didn't mean it that way. I agree that there is probably very little collective thinking in this regard. It's more a matter of business in the modern world of bikes has to be done that way, or you will not survive. It's what primarily drove me to doing little but service. Frame design and manufacturing, componentry, wheels. It's all become a giant shark feeding frenzy. There's all this forced innovation to keep getting sales. It has done virtually nothing to truly enhance cycling, but almost everyone thinks it has, and now they can't go back. So many perfectly good bikes and products that people won't give a thought to because they look pale next to the new glitter. I truly believe that the industry as a whole, though not intentionally acting in concert, doesn't want people to know that Cromor frames can be as good as UltraFoco frames, and better in many ways, or that 32' MA-2 wheels are really as good as (insert flashy aero wheel of the week here), and often better. That would essentially eliminate most of the bike industry high-end sales of the last 10 years.
Would we really be any worse off?
Jon Schaer Columbus, OH
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 19:38:34 -0700 From: Chuck Schmidt <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net> To: CR List <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]Mario Masi ?????? Message-ID: <3FE7AA78.A379155E@earthlink.net> References: <410-220031222324512843@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Reply-To: chuckschmidt@earthlink.net Message: 17
nick zatezalo wrote:
>
> Is this in fact a Mario made GC?
>
> If so...how can one tell conclusively?
>
> http://ebay.com/
>From the auction: "The M56 is stamped a bit above the top of the 'M'. I found in my research that the very early frames were stamped this way with the M indicating Milano as place of origin and the 56 indicating the frame size." and "Inside the steering forks under the tube, there is a 3-inch elongated raised triangle with a spade-shaped cut-out similar to those on the ends of the other tubes. I understand that this spade or rounded triangle is the logo associated with Confente while he was still making frames in Italy."
Mario Confente lived in Verona and his shop (part of his parents home) was there. There are Italian Masi that are stamped "V" and the frame size in centimeters, such as "V 55.5" and the assumption is that the V stands for Verona, therefore a Mario built Masi would not have a "M" stamped on the bottom bracket.
Also, there are no spades cut out of any part of a Masi that I have ever seen. And no, a "rounded triangle" is not a spade.
In my opinion, not built by Mario Confente, if that makes any difference. And also in my opinion, Mario Confente would probably not have been regarded as the best framebuilder in Italy and maybe not even the best among the builders that Faliero Masi contracted to build frames for Masi.
Anyone else with opinions?
Chuck Schmidt South Pasadena, Southern California
. ------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:38:35 EST From: OROBOYZ@aol.com To: roydrink@ptd.net, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Announcing the Cirque '04 Theme! Message-ID: <da.aeecd.2d1912bb@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 18
Ladies and gentleman....................
The 2004 Theme for the Cirque du Cyclisme is............. . (drum roll, french horns)
The bikes if ITALIA! (Italy)
That is that because: - it is Italy's turn - there are a lotta cool bikes from Italy - Many of you have cool Italian bikes - That's enough reasons!
Now PLEASE realize that while Italian bikes will recieve a certain focus and maybe additional award categories, ALL excellent examples of vintage & classic style bikes are welcome at the Cirque. Having an Italian theme does not mean everyone has to bring Italian. But if it's a toss up between the Cinelli and the Holdsworth, BRING the Cinelli!
See you all there, Dale
Dale Brown Greensboro, North Carolina ------------------------------
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End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 12, Issue 82
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