Re: [CR]Chronology of Brooks saddles?

> Paul Williams wrote:
> >
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > My weekly questions. Has anyone compiled a chronology of Brooks saddles - model numbers, badges, stamps, rail types, etc.? I know some are dated but what about those which do not have dates? What are the time ranges for certain models?
>
> My Brooks 1908 catalog shows a B 17 Champion. I don't know how much
> earlier that saddle existed but the company dates to 1866!
>
> Some posts from the CR archives (there's tons):
>
> Subject:
> Re: [CR]Brooks timeline
> Date:
> Wed, 22 May 2002 16:17:41 +0100
> From:
> Bob Reid <bob.reid1@virgin.net>
> To:
> <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>
> Sarah,
>
> You are possibly thinking of the searchable UK patent databases
> (accessible
> through http://www.patent.gov.uk) these contain the majority of the
> British,
> European & World patents inc. those for cycling related equipment
> downloadable in pdf format. These relate to the patent No.'s that are
> often
> found on some (but not all) Brooks saddles - really dependant on age.
> Some
> of these can be used to help date the saddle. In answer to a previous
> question regarding a saddle that had the old logo and a number '6826/49'
> on
> the cantle plate is replied (see Chuck I do read the archives :-) ;
>
> > The Brooks logo and the patent application No. indicate that it was
> made
> > between 1949 & 1951 !
> >
> > This patent (No.6826) was applied for March 12, 1949 (/49) and was
> published
> > in full in 1951. Additionally the oval Brooks logo was discontinued in
> 1955.
> > In this instance the year stamp which I think first appeared from the
> mid to
> > late 1950's won't be much help.
> >
> > (the patent relates to electric hot rivetting the of the frame rods
> (saddle
> > rails) to the back or cantle plate).
>
> This was a particularly tricky question, as the number on the Saddle was
> the
> Application Number and not the final patent No. as recorded on the patent
> database and given to Brooks once there application was successfull.
>
> There probably is no single way of easily dating Brooks saddles outwith
> the
> years that the two digit year/letter stamp was used, such was the myriad
> of
> production changes made over time. Anyone trying to put a +/- 2 or 3
> years
> date on a saddlle without the date stamp, needs to look at (a) the style
> &
> cut of the cover (b) the type & wording of the embossed logo on the cover
> (c) any stampings on the underside of the cantle plate (d) any stamp on
> the
> underside of the cover (e) The type / arrangement of the tensioner and
> (e)
> The method of joining the saddle rails to the cantle plate.
>
> I would add that though the 'new' logo appeared in late 54 early 55, many
> saddle continued for some time to be produced with the oval logo.
>
> Maybe a dating article is a good opener for the French & British list.
> One
> component the French did love.....
>
> Bob Reid
> Stonehaven
> Scotland
> ========================================================================
>
> Subject:
> Now: Brooks Was: Can anybody identify this saddle?
> Date:
> Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:26:08 -0800
> From:
> Chuck Schmidt <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net>
> To:
> internet-bob@lists.davin.ottawa.on.ca
> CC:
> classicrendezvous@listbot.com
> References:
> 1
>
>
> I'm not a Brooks saddle expert nor do I play one on television. Having
> said that I will admit to having seen many Brooks saddles so I'll try to
> answer your questions.
>
> The following comments generally pertain to the B17
> line of saddles (swallow, champion, champion narrow, sprint, etc).
>
> There was a steady change in Brooks saddles after World War II to make
> them cheaper to manufacture. Up until 1955 the saddles had an oval logo
> stamped on the flaps, chamfered edges to the flaps, a solid brass name
> plate, solid brass rivets and a "keyed" nose tensioning pin (milled
> channels on each side), incised style-lines (character lines) on the
> upper sides of the saddle, and often were equiped with the splash shield
> glued on the underside.
>
> After 1955, the logo stamped on the flaps was changed to the modified
> trapazoid shape still in use today. Stepped style-lines on the upper
> sides of the saddle were also introduced at this time. The tension pin
> in the nose was changed to an easier to manufacture pin with a small
> bump on one side to keep it from rotating with the tensioning nut. Over
> the years the solid brass rivets were
> changed to split steel rivets, the chamfering was eliminated, the bushes
> in the bag loops on the heel plate were eliminated, and the name plate
> was changed to anodized aluminum and then hot-stamped black plastic.
>
> Also the saddle clamp for use with straight seat posts was simplified by
> eliminating the inner part of the clamp and the nuts and threaded square
> rod were changed to a simple rod and nut design.
>
> Pre-WWII, the bag loops were bushes that pierced the back of the saddle
> but were not attached to the heel plate (cantle) and obviously were not
> very strong or robust. The frame was usually offered in either chrome
> or gloss black paint.
>
> Often if you look closely at the underside of the frame you'll find a
> capital letter and two digits. The two numbers are the last two digits
> of the year of manufacture. The numbers and letters applied to the
> underside of the leather are a manufacturing code that Brooks no longer
> has any records of.
>
> Could anyone else volunteer additional info as far as modifications and
> dates of change to Brooks saddles?
>
> Chuck Schmidt
> South Pasadena, California
> http://www.velo-retro.com (check the Campy Timeline on the site)
> ========================================================================
>
>
> Subject:
> Re: [Classicrendezvous] B15 vs. B17
> Date:
> Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:35:37 EDT
> From:
> "Donald Dundee" <rebour@hotmail.com>
> To:
> CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com, moos@penn.com, TheLocalSpoke@bigfoot.com
> CC:
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
>
> Well, sort of. Firstly, a comment about the B15 line vs the B17 line. The
> B15 line of Saddles, which included the B15 Standard, narrow and Swallow,
> was a lesser grade saddle than the B17. The leather used was thinner and
> generally rejected for inclusion in the B17 line. B15's normally employed
> a
> reinforcement under-patch which was intended to strengthen the
> saddle.This
> patch was not used on the B15 Swallow. Finally, perhaps teh most
> distinguishing feature of B15's was that they used hollow steel rivets.
> You
> can tell by the fact that they are split on the underside.
> The B15 line was produced until 1971, when it was discontinued for
> economic
> reasons within the company.
>
> The B15 Swallow had cutaway sides that were interconnected underneath by
> a
> riveted plate. The B17 Swallow, which had a similar profile to teh B15,
> and
> utilized the same hardware, was an extremely well-crafted saddle. Made of
> heavier leather, it employed an integral stiffener wire, hand stitched
> within the side flaps, and a chrome-plated fastening plate on the
> underside.
> This model was produced until 1970/71, to the best of my knowledge, but
> according to george flegg, shop foreman at Brooks, it was made on a few
> occasions subsequent to 1971 on special order.
>
> Both B17 and B15 lines were available in Black or Brown. Earlier versions
> of
> the B17 Swallow were available with optional "dull" finish. Also, earlier
> versions of the B17 swallow normally used black rails, with chrome rails
> optional.
>
> There were also lightweight versions of the B17 Swallow (model B57) which
> employed stainless steel rails and aluminum cantleplate. these are quite
> rare as bi-metallic corossion often occured at the cantleplate/rail
> location, causing fatigue failure.
>
> My 1970 WB Hurlow shown at Lars Anderson this past season was equipped
> with
> a B17 Swallow with shiny black finish. My 1950's Ephgrave had an earlier
> version of the B17 Swallow with optional dull finish, oval embossed logo,
> and early nameplate.
>
> The last reiteration of the Swallow was in response to demand and did not
> hold a candle to earlier versions. This model, produced from the late
> 80's
> through mid 90's, had the side flaps riveted to an arch-shaped, black
> enameled, steel plate which connected the side flaps together with
> exposed
> copper rivets. The production of this saddle had nothing to do with Mike
> Kone or Bicycle Classics, but rather the company's interest in
> retro-introducing the item. It fell short of expectations.
> ========================================================================
>

>

> Chuck Schmidt

> L.A.

>

> .