Sorry but I don't see the problem here. I would consider it an advantage to have such detailed price options. I don't want to pay an "all in one" price if I want to have a Gios repainted where I can provide the decals myself, don't need pin striping and fork painted and can bring and pick up the frame personally. On the other hand I would pay a lot extra if I really need custom recreated decals, complex pin striping or custom mixed special paint pigments. That the final price for restoring a bended english classic including all the tasks you mentioned can easyly double (or more) the basic price of a simple paint job shouldn't be a surprise. Ok,... paint stripping and preparation should be included in a pulished "basic REpaint* price, but charging the rest additionally sounds reasonable for me.
Dirk
with several bikes that need to be restored in the basement and very interested in such experiences
-- Dirk Feeken Heidelberg Germany
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Steve Neago Sent: Freitag, 16. Januar 2004 13:30 To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]CyclArt Quality & Overcharge Concerns by Pergolizzi
I wonder if CyclArt is being selective on facts regarding "published prices" because these have not always been fully disclosed in the past. My past experience years ago with CyclArt regarding a frame repaint quotation was not the best. The initial "basic" email price from CyclArt at that time in no way resembled their far higher final price quotation by the end of the later telephone quotation. This is why I chose not to do business with CyclArt. It sounds like Pergolizzi had a similar experience like me with CyclArt on "floating prices". Fortunately, I did not experience Pergolizzi's pain in receiving a frame and paint job allegedly "damaged in shipping" according to CyclArt.
I know that CyclArt's quotation to me for a "basic" frame repaint included numerous additional charges not fully disclosed in their "basic" price at that time:
frame paint stripping & prep charges, head badge removal/reinstall charges, parts removal charges for only a headset frame alignment charges, frame minor ding charges, fancy lug charges, frame paint masking charges, fork painting charges type and color of paint charges, multiple layer paint spray charges, paint special application charges, decal purchase charges, decal application charges, pinstriping charges, multiple clear coat charges, packing and box charges, shipping charges, shop material charges, and a possible 10% undeclared miscellaneous charge on top of that!
After all of those charges, the CyclArt paint warranty was only for 3 months. The CR archives has documented some past concerns with CyclArt quality. Meanwhile, other CR members said they are completely happy with the quality of work performed by CyclArt.
Companies change pricing over time and CyclArt may have changed their policies, but I maintain that CyclArt adds numerous required charges that literally "nickel and dime" a customer with higher costs. A more reasonable business policy would be to create a "one price does all" instead of all these incremental charges. The bottom line is that the listed "basic" price is not what you will finish with because there may be numerous required additional charges disclosed on their website. This is why I purchased my own HVLP spray equipment to paint my frames for my projects!
CAVEAT EMPTOR regarding CyclArt!
Regards, Steve Neago
Cincinnati, OH
CR Listers,
RE: Pergolizzi's post at the bottom of this one:
At CyclArt the customer is always in control of his costs. While it is possible that we may recommend services not anticipated in a phone estimate before the frame is seen, we never proceed without clear authorization of our estimates, which state clearly that they will not be increased by more than 10% without prior notice. We have many options for those who wish to adhere to a budget. All our prices are published on our printed order guide and on our website.
There was no alignment charge on John's Drysdale, and it was not powdercoated. As was clearly explained to him in writing at the time, the frame had horrific, deep rust pitting overall which had been hidden under several layers of brushed on paint. We increased the estimate $125 over the first telephone estimate (frame unseen) to cover the hours of work it takes to fill deep pitting while retaining all those nice crisp lug edges. We stripped the old paint, removed the rust, treated the surface with a rust inhibitor then applied primer and several coats of Imron. We then applied putty to some of the worst areas. This is where the job stopped when John cancelled the order. Had we proceeded, all of the applied material would have been hand sanded to the surface of the steel leaving the filler material only in the pits and the frame ready for primer and paint.
We include an alignment check at no charge with all frame refinishes. In the case of John's Drysdale, the bottom bracket had been so badly abused that I recommended it be tapped and faced. ($25) Not only would that be a good thing for proper assembly, but since our alignment fixture holds the frame by the bottom bracket it would insure that we could get an accurate alignment reading on the thrashed frame. These charges were also in the written estimate sent for approval. I have copies of our estimates and correspondence with John that clearly spell all this out.
Exchanges with Pergolizzi have usually involved a phone estimate followed by receipt of a frame that is in much worse shape than his description. John then tries to bully us into holding to the phone estimate while performing all the additional work.
I'm sorry to be on John's BS list as I enjoyed his enthusiasm in many of our dealings. Two years ago I politely declined to accept another job he wanted to send because of our previous difficulties and a long overdue balance. Since then he has been on the warpath, misrepresenting this situation and blowing it all out of proportion. I've had someone "drop a dime" to listen to his rant about us and it is all nonsense based on John's frustration with not being able to bully me and fabrications from the rumor mill.
Let's get back to fun with old bikes.
Jim Cunningham CyclArtist Vista, CA
Pergolizzi's Post:
B.S.!
Then why did you try to charge me $125.00 just for "alignment" on my
Drysdale you put the bum powdercoat finish on?. And don't forget the pink
bondo you schmeared on top of the powder coat. Oh yea, you "had to tap and
face the bottom bracket first.
B.S.!
John T.Pergolizzi
New York City
There's new oats and there's used oats. We all know what used oats are
called.
And don't no one ask for apologies cause they ain't come'n. Call me and
I'll give you a real earful about Cunningham. Best dime you'll ever drop.
That will be the most expensive $145.00 you'll ever spend. But then again,
what is an education worth?