Re: [CR]re: a man called brian (was re: frame building 101, or something like that)

(Example: Production Builders:Teledyne)

From: "C. Andrews" <chasds@mindspring.com>
To: "Richard M Sachs" <richardsachs@juno.com>
References: <20040301.122157.6112.25.richardsachs@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [CR]re: a man called brian (was re: frame building 101, or something like that)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:42:46 -0800
cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

I agree with you. Why do you think I still have this Baylis, and why I will likely not sell it? (although I might trade it for something interesting...)

My point was, however, that in the real world market, it's highly unlikely anyone would pay the original price for a current Baylis. The "price" reflects the uniqueness *to the original client* of the frame in question. The uniqueness is lost, to some degree, to any other potential owner..so, in a practical example, if I took delivery of a Baylis road frame tomorrow, for $4K, and then tried to re-sell it, I'd be lucky if I got 2K for it. I suspect I'd get closer to a grand for it, which is what I paid for the one I have now. And I was one of only two potential buyers for it, after it failed to meet the reserve on ebay (of course, the fact that the seller refused to bother to post pictures is relevant, but even with pics, I doubt the frame would have made 2K)...

This brute reality contradicts Taz Taylor's contention, which was my intention in the first place...

Nice to have you back..

Charles


----- Original Message -----
From: Richard M Sachs
To: chasds@mindspring.com
Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: [CR]re: a man called brian (was re: frame


building 101, or something like that)


> snipped & cut from post below:
> "...you'd *never* be able to sell your frame for
> anywhere near what you paid for it, because it was made for
> YOU, and others who want such a frame will pay that much for
> it *only* if it was made *for them!*--- second, the only
> way to get what you want from Brian Baylis, is to order a
> frame and pay whatever the price is, and wait as long as
> you have to wait. Anything else is second-best...at best."
>
>
> chas
> i don't agree at all. brian's frames are masterfully made,
> unique, and rare. products such as his have added value that
> relate to more than "use" and "fit". you may not want one that
> you can't ride, but that only dictates what you'd buy one for, not
> the market.
> if i were wealthy and in a collecting mood, i'd want a baylis
> (and a confente, and a 60s cinelli, etcetera...) just to appreciate
> the place in time that it was produced. no need to ride it.
> e-RICHIE
> chester, ct
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------
> the post:
> "C. Andrews" <chasds@mindspring.com> writes:
> This assumption is false. I can prove it from an anecdotal
> case in the real world. About a year ago now, I bought a
> Baylis frame-set. Just back from Baylis himself..he had
> replaced a tube and repainted it. Pearl yellow with white
> panels. Nervex lugs with tiny, elegant holes in them. In
> brand-new condition. Very pretty. I paid $950 shipped for
> this frame. It was not built for me, and as a result, while
> it's close to my size, it's not exactly right.
>
> What's left out of the assumption above is that every one of
> Brian's frames is a one-off, made for one person, and unless
> you happen to match that person's specs exactly, you're
> never going to get a Baylis that fits you exactly right, on
> the open market. Not to mention that the frame will not
> have the custom finish details that Brian specializes
> in...it'll have details, sure, but they won't be the details
> *you* ordered. As for fit, yeah, you might get lucky, but
> only a few people will get that lucky, at best.
>
> At one point, I offered this frame to another list member,
> who, reasonably, said that while it was very nice, he'd
> rather order one of his own from Brian.
>
> My point is two-fold: first, if you followed the method
> noted above, you'd *never* be able to sell your frame for
> anywhere near what you paid for it, because it was made for
> YOU, and others who want such a frame will pay that much for
> it *only* if it was made *for them!*--- second, the only
> way to get what you want from Brian Baylis, is to order a
> frame, and pay whatever the price is, and wait as long as
> you have to wait. Anything else is second-best...at best.
> There is no way to manipulate the price and demand by
> re-selling the frames on the open-market.
>
> Charles "cheapskate" Andrews
> SoCal