Re: [CR]Epitome Of Bilaminated Frames JPEGS

(Example: Events:Cirque du Cyclisme:2004)

Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 08:49:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [CR]Epitome Of Bilaminated Frames JPEGS
From: "Richard M Sachs" <>

bob thanks for all the history. you bracketed my text - are you agreeing with me? e-RICHIE chester, ct

On Fri, 21 May 2004 07:36:24 +0100 Bob Reid <> writes: Richard wrote ;
> p. h.a. p.*
> who are we kidding here. what is the rationale in adding
> these ornaments? the manly thing would have been to
> own up to the fact that lugs(s) didn't exist to make the
> particular frame geometry so builder used a bronze
> welded joint. imo, the amount of extra heat needed to
> add the details would detract from the integrity of the
> joint - unless really REALLY heavy guage pipes were
> used. could this explain why this type of joint is uncommon?

Fancy is as fancy does...

Am I missing something here ? Are we saying that all pre-war frames with fancy lug adornments are by their very nature bilaminated ? - I don't see

it that way, but then again maybe I'm just stupid and misreading all the bilaminated postings !

Post-war plenty of builders - i.e. I'd say most, produced a bronze-welded

frame, in fact many had produced bronze-welded frames pre-war, and some like the Taylor's carried it on many years later. Though bronze welded many did not also add the false lug twiddly bits. Surely the additional time spent bronze welding a joint would input as much if not more heat as

would be spent brazing up the fancy lugs ?

Even - dare I say it ? the builder of Flying Scot's, David Rattray's produced (for it seems about one year only - 1947) bronze-welded frames because, I'm told, lugs were all but unavailable however by late 48' Nervex and Prugnat lugs became commonly available and became stock fare for the next 30 years. (As an aside at the end of the war many builders appear to have been using up their pre-war stocks, and it was only two years later that fresh supplies became a problem for some)

I'd say that in the pre & post-war frame market, where there were numerous builders all producing much the same frames, the continuance of bronze welding - and of fancy lug adornments, was nothing more than a 'look-at-me' 'my frames are much better' marketing tool, with absolutely no real need. Even the mass producers - like Holdsworth got in on the act, but having seen one recently stripped of paint, I can confirm the additions are nothing but brazed on fancy-pieces (one 'point' was attached to the top tube, but not to the lug) !

Fancy lug patterns may have been a hallmark of certain British lightweight builders, but very few in reality. Many more were producing frames with the then fashionable continental 'less-is-more' patterned lugs from the likes of Nervex. To me, the true hallmark of the post-war lightweight, was the fancy paint jobs.

Now where were we ?

Bob Reid