Re: [CR]Toei touring frame on Ebay.

Example: Production Builders

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 21:28:38 -0500
Subject: Re: [CR]Toei touring frame on Ebay.
From: Todd Kuzma <>
To: Norris Lockley <>, <>
In-Reply-To: <001701c45015$9ce62400$7bdb8351@oemcomputer>

on 6/11/04 7:38 PM, Norris Lockley at wrote:
> The Toei stands at just under $800 with not too long to run. The other day a
> Gilles Berthoud - frame of some distinction, built up with quite a lot of
> quality gear fetched about the same price.. but the Berthoud was a far mor
> distinctive touring frame, built to an extremely high standard using a lugless
> construction.

You are making the assumption here that the Toei frame is "workmanlike" and that the Berthoud is a "frame of some distinction" "built to an extremely high standard." How do you know that these assumptions are true? Toei has a very good reputation. Berthoud, while being French, doesn't have the history or heritage of a Rene Herse or Alex Singer. Not to disparage Berthoud in any way, but I don't know that he has any more claim to "Rene Herse keeper of the flame" than Toei.

In any case, the auction for the Toei frame has much more detailed photos than either of the recent Berthoud auctions. I think that it's easier to get a good response with frames of this type if you provide good close-up photos.
> On UK Ebay an original George Longstaff Audax bike, built by George himself,
> the frame finished to a high standard of craftsmanship is standing at a
> fraction of the above prices...

Not a fair comparison at all. First, this bike is 8 hours into a 7-day auction. Second, the frame is described as scratched and touched up with non-matching paint. It's certainly not pristine. See what the price is when the auction ends.

The other consideration is how hard it would be to get one of these frames new. A new Longstaff Audax frame can be purchased for £630 including VAT. New Berthoud light touring frames are available for 990 Euros. Toei frames ARE available, but certainly not as simple to get as a Longstaff or Berthoud.

Todd Kuzma Heron Bicycles Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery LaSalle, IL