Mick,
You do not owe me an apology, if that was one. I was not part of the off-list stuff, nor the on-list insults. Nor did you mislead me on lug extensions/bi-lam, any who have been misled should soon understand it better. Even if I have two dozen errors, somebody will correct them. Wrinkles in the collective knowledge will be ironed out.
> Norman Kilgariff the British expert on lugless and welded frames.
Don't forget haddock suppers and goldstar pickles that sook yer cheeks right in, oh yes and holdsworths. I do prefer the title 'holdsworth anorak' though, it has a certain je ne sais quoi.
>It is now obvious that I got all the facts on this fascinating subject hopelessly wrong.
I haven't even told you what's wrong yet, behave yourself, and my views may need a minor correction or a major kick in the knackers, who knows? Plenty of CR folk capable of correcting my errors. Think of who's here from the UK alone.
> the offensive emails I received on this subject. This
> contained the most abusive remarks and bad language which
> made even me blush let alone my then fourteen year old daughter
> ..I only got touchy and yes probably down right rude after these emails.
I hope those who sent such emails note this, particularly your daughter seeing them. Whatever prompts one person to email you may also prompt 20 others. You make one bad post to list, you cop 20 hatemails back. Maybe they start spontaneously, or maybe a thoughtless jibe or a bit of sarcasm prompts them, I leave these things to the philosophers. I do know what an email deluge is. But these emails stopped, you had got over them. It seems that my starting this thread has brought a relapse.
>I deliberately didn't mention the 1936 Holdsworth welded lugless
>La Quelda as to my knowledge the first models were a failure.
If they were made of 531 you can bet your life on it, I hear the first 531 weld-ups were failing all over the place. High carbon 531 just cannot take the heat. But who was making them? manufacturers who were caught by the snappers hush it up. Only when 1936/7 cats appear will we really know, Harry may have tried 531 too. La Quelda was on Reynolds HM in 1939 so they would be OK by then. I think this is the problem that Harry and Claud solved in 1937, by using Bronze fillet braze they could safely use 531, it's spec is a fair bit better than HM, except when steel welded of course.
>La Q... not a sales success to at least 1947 when it became fillet brazed.
>If you use Hilary Stones and Peter Paine's ebay listings as a guide they
>seem to have an abundance of Butler welded frames regularly for sale and
>I can't ever remembering them listing a Holdsworth La Quelda.
I can think of 3 LQ's on ebay in the last 2 years. Hilary's was 1948 (on my LQ page). But I don't think any other pre 1960 Holds model has even had 3 on ebay. Only 4 or 5 pre war Holds have surfaced (to me) in total, so no pre war LQ's is no real surprise, 1939 one's will be OK but it's still HM, would cycledom be seduced by Harry & Clauds 531 offerings? Probably.
The matter of sales volume is dodgy. Holdsworth had only made c6000 frames in total by the start of the war, in 1934 alone Hercules made 600,000. In one year, because of Frank Southalls fantastic records. What Holds produced in 7 years, 6000, they did in 3 days! To Holdsworths 1000 was a lot, to Hercules it was insignificant. Not that many welded pre 1950 Butlers surface on ebay either, these makes should outnumber Holds LQ's though, for obvious reasons.
>I still maintain that Harry Rensch had a welded frame
>for sale before Holdsworths in 1935.
Never said he didn't. If he was selling it in 1935 it would be, you previous posts say 1936, LQ was launched 1936. But I fail to see what this has to do with the price of a fish supper. Claud was 1938, 2 years later so if Claud's a pioneer so is Holdsworth in 1936. Except it's all about bronze fillet brazing. I cannot explain it any clearer than before. It ain't rocket science, more rocket lettuce.
>Finally I have always tried to help list members on all their cycling questions
Of course you have, and it is clearly appreciated by very many. Over the last 2 years I have been involved in over 150 Holdsworth ID projects, some of them very involved, some less so. My site's whole purpose is to answer questions for enthusiasts. So our aims are the same, you use the list and I mainly use a specialised web-site.
>...leave you in the expert hands of the other British experts.
>Hopefully you will have more success than me. I have two Holdsworth
>frames that I need identifying and dating and have sent countless emails
>all ignored and unanswerered. Hope I provided a little bit better service
>when I was active. At least Mike Lebron got an answer there were no crumbs
>at the table for me.
I did help you, have you forgotten? On ebay 20-27 Feb 2003, you auctioned a frame sans fork and sans paint. Unknown make, unknown model, unknown year, but you gave the serial number in the text, saying 'nice lugs'.
I emailed you on the 24 Feb saying Holdsworth Cyclone cJuly 1950, with other data and a site-link to confirm, you said thanks and "I am going to put on ebay soon my other Holdsworth, think its 1951 with Clement ends. Will contact you nearer the time." I asked for the serial and ID type pics to date and ID it, explaining etc. Next day, 27 Feb 03 you wrote "Will do that and thanks for your help. Be lucky Mick Butler Huntingdon UK"
And that was the last I heard from you. That's 1.5 years ago. I keep copies of all email stuff for reference/research.
Having ignored my doctors advice for a year I finally removed my last email link saying "need a rest", but you just email me anyway, because you now want the ID done. The folk I have worked with for 2 years needed ID's done too. Some may consider your actions a bit selfish. Anyway, 'countless' emails? how high can you count? most folk would take the hint after say 2-4.
The purpose of my bi-lam posts is correction not crucifixion, you wouldn't mind a bit of correction if it was that barmaid with the big bazonkas, eh? You cannot post in a forum like this and expect the congregation to hang on your every word. Nor should one list member veto a whole 'on-topic'. What if it was Masi? How can we compare considered views if we all play the prima donna with the petted lip?
I hope Mick will continue to help any who need his help on the list. If a wee break is in order so be it. However I sincerely believe that if Mick reads my 4 bi-lam posts with thought, even if I have errors, his own understanding of the issues may benefit more than anybody's. This is the purpose of Dale's List.
Unlike my previous posts, the next 4 do not request list input, so I will just post them one or two days apart starting mid-week, I hope they are of use.
Norman Kilgariff (Glasgow, Scotland)
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!