Re: [CR]Mixed Tubing Bikes hard to identify

(Example: Framebuilders:Bernard Carré)

From: <gpvb1@comcast.net>
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [CR]Mixed Tubing Bikes hard to identify
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 04:38:46 +0000


Nick, e-RICHIE, et al: (Who is this Al guy, anyways?). I hear you, but the tubes in a Schwinn Varsity aren't equivalent to the tubes in a Richard Sachs 30th Anniversary frame, or a Confente, or a vintage Paramount. Antonio probably selected "typical" tubing gauges for all of those same-size BG test frames, as any experienced framebuilder might do, unless asked specifically to do otherwise. So naturally, the perceived performance differences between them might be subtle.... I dig my early Raleigh 753 Team Pro, but it sure isn't anything like a "standard issue" 531 Pro of the same vintage in terms of performance. The fact is, there were/are significant differences in the wall thickness and butting of premium bike frame tubing, even if we stick to only "classically-dimensioned, lugged steel" framesets. And I mean tube dimensions here, i.e. 1-1/8" DT and ST, 1" TT. An SP tubeset weighs about 300 grams more than an SL tubeset (in a "B" size). A 531cs tubeset weighed significantly more than a 531st set, which weighed significantly more than a 531sl set, which in turn weighed more than a 753 set, which in turn weighed more than a 753 Time Trial set, etc., etc. Yes, there are about 623 things that a good framebulder can select from when designing and building a bike frame, and of course small-volume folks mix and match tubes of various manufacturers and gauges in some cases, but the basic tube wall thicknesses do matter, and they can matter a whole bunch sometimes. I'll agree that if it's all steel of the same external dimensions, the "kind" of tubing doesn't really matter for the most part, but wall thickness (gauge) and shape sure do! Cheers, Greg Parker Dexter, Michigan http://www.bicycleclassics.com Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:34:24 -0400 From: "nick zatezalo" <nickzz@mindspring.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: FW: RE: [CR]Mixed Tubing Bikes hard to identify

The February 1996 Bicycle Guide had an article about comparing 7 styles of Columbus steel tubing. None of the frames had tubing stickers or designations of any kind. The bikes were identical in geometry, components, and size, but were made from different styles of Columbus pipes. The frames were all made by the hands of Antonio Mondonico. Materials tested were EL-OS, Neuron, SLX, Brain, Thron, Cromor, & Aelle. The conclusion reached in the article was that the differences were very subtle and inconclusive.

The final statement of the article was as follows: "Perhaps more than anything, they illustrate that the personality of a bike is determined much more by the fit, frame geometry and the components than by what kind of tubing lies under the paint."

e-RICHIE is quoted with the now familiar saw: "When someone is buying a bike from me, they're buying my design choices and my construction skills. I actually think material is the least consequential choice."

Pipes don't make the bike! What the framebuilder does with the pipes MAKES the bike.

Nick Zatezalo
Atlanta,Ga