Re: [CR]are some of us nuts?

(Example: Framebuilders)

From: <gpvb1@comcast.net>
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [CR]are some of us nuts?
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:27:07 +0000


Well, I sort of agree. First, you're not correct regarding the AMX. A clean '69 AMX with the right options (390, Go-Pack, "Molteni" Orange paint, etc.) is a fabulous, real-deal American muscle car with classic styling. Definitely not your father's Pacer wagon. I'd love to have one.... Second, I'm pretty convinced that, like with cars, there is a core group of (mostly) guys (us!) that is willing to pay a lot for the right vintage lightweight bike, and as we age and lose interest [not us of course! Those "other" wannabe guys!! ;-) ], many of the bikes that command serious money now will not do so any longer. Think of the "Pee Wee Herman" -type bikes (for lack of a better term, sorry if that upsets anyone), and the Schwinn Krates. Are they right now commanding the prices they were a few years ago? I don't think so (in general). At our annual local swap, the fat-tired Schwinn Phantom & Whizzer guys are getting older and older, and are starting to be replaced by much younger "low rider" bike builders/owners. These dudes don't take a second look at any of the "classic" fat-tired bikes (or our beloved lightweights, for the most part...). Having said that, this is a very complex issue, since we're dealing with folks' emotions, passions, and midlife crises. It certainly can be said that certain vintage lightweights will probably never drop significantly in value (other than short-term), but I'm not losing any sleep over whether I own the "right" ones or not. I enjoy mine. (Although, now that you mention it, I'm not riding the NOS Verona-built Masi GC...). It's a little like trying to buy your primary residence as an investment, I think. Too much worrying required IMO - I buy a home for my family to live in and enjoy, and then am generally happy when it appreciates. Some years, it's a lot, some years zero (or worse - lately, we have had a bubble burst locally in my price range / neighborhood. My home is worth about 10-20 % less than it was 12 months ago. Some homes are selling for just barely or even below taxed value - that's unheard of here in the past 25 years). But again, I'm not too worried about it (yet!). Greg Parker Dexter, Michigan http://www.bicycleclassics.com

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:25:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Van De Velde <jaysportif@yahoo.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]are some of us nuts?

After reading the WSJ article Harvey cited on Friday ( Thanks again Harvey) I had to chuckle at some of the "Buy,Hold, Sell" recommendations the article's author has made. C'mon; buy an American Motors AMX or an Olds Vista Cruiser ( a station wagon, forcryinoutloud) and sell your Aston Martin DB6, Duesy J or Ferrari Daytona? That's like saying "buy a Sears Ted Williams (No offense Harvey) and sell your Cinelli SC. Experiencing stratospheric run ups in prices recently are '60s-early '70s muscle cars, and what I think are their bike equivalents, the late '60s -early '70s Italian road bikes from the Big 5 (Cinelli, Colnago, DeRosa, Pogliaghi, Masi). As pointed out before by others, the 40+ demographic is pursuing these items they lusted after but couldn't afford in their youth (which also describes me). With the muscle cars there's probably going to be a burst bubble similar to the late '80s bubble regarding European sports cars ( recall those $1M Daytonas, now around $125K ) but as long as you didn't buy your Daytona in the few years of that hyper-frenzied market, you're still doing OK, holding a valuable and highly desirable car. With bikes, the same lessons apply. Don't spend stupid money for that early Masi, but don't worry if you had to spend a bit more than you wished to get the right bike. The classic bikes now will be classic bikes in the future. I also think there's too much concern and hand-wringing regarding the next generation of collectors. There will always be cyclists and collectors who will be drawn to bikes preceding the era of their youth, just as there are and will continue to be car enthusiasts who appreciate fine automobiles built decades before they were born. I spent a wonderful day today wandering among some beautiful cars at a local Concours D'Elegance in Palos Verdes. Lots of Ferraris, Porsches, 'Vettes, European and American classics. The 2 cars I was most drawn to were a prewar 4 1/2 liter racing Bentley and an original condition 1928 Auburn Speedster, both built WAY before I was born. I will venture to guess that many of us who will attend Velo Rendezvous 04 in a few weeks will be drawn to bikes on display built before the halcyon days of our youth, or even to bikes built well before we were even born. Jay Van De Velde Seal Beach, CA

"C. Andrews" <chasds@mindspring.com> wrote: Harvey Sachs wrote an interesting post last week, but I've lost it. He was pointing out that certain classic cars that used to be very sought after are not anymore, because the guys who liked them are beginning to shuffle off this mortal coil. So the market is fading.

I thought this would generate an interesting thread, but if it did, I missed it, so I thought I'd post something on the subject..

There may be some analog in that story, when it comes to the bikes we love..but I doubt it. Already there is a clear differentiation in the market between the bikes/frames/parts that are clearly and consistently collectable, and everything else. I doubt that will change. Also, rarity will always be a consideration. For instance, no matter how many years go by, an original Porsche Spyder rally car will always just get more and more pricey. Same for the legendary gull-wing Mercedes 190SL from the 1950s, or certain Ferrari rally cars: rarity, famous manufacturer, racing provenance. Hard to beat those, at any time.

I believe the same will be true for a clean, original Masi Special from the mid-60s. Ditto for a clean, original Gloria Garibaldina Extra from the 30s or 40s with all the original bits (or any other Gloria, for that matter). The aristocrats of the lightweight bikes will always be worth money, and sought after, even when we're all gone. A new generation of guys will be interested in them. Sure..some bikes will go begging, just like some cars go begging. And fashion will fluctuate. But if we buy quality *and* rarity, I doubt any of us will be disappointed, in a purely financial sense.

Harvey's point though was that he would collect to please himself and not worry about value. I must confess I give some thought to value..I prefer not to buy something and have it be worth what I pay only to me. So far, as I contemplate my modest stable, I have the feeling even 50 years from now, every bike would find a home for its value, without much trouble.

If I owned a bunch of french production bikes from the 70s it might be a different story... but even one of those, totally original and clean, will have some basic value. Value and collectability will fluctuate for more for one of those, though, than for a prime Masi Special, imho.

In the last 40 years, so far as I can tell, frames and full bikes from the best makers have held their original value very nicely, with rare exceptions..and this for bikes and parts no longer new..so, in that sense, they exceed original value on a routine basis.

As an example I've used before: in 1971, a fully-kitted-out Colnago Super (the one with the cool, short-lived, playing-card graphics package) from Berkeley Velo-Sport would set you back about $475 (depending on certain accessories and tires). That money today is worth over $2150 in inflation-adjusted dollars, and I expect a very clean '71 Super in all-original condition, if put on ebay with good pics, would go for that much, or likely more, in a prime size.

This is true for all the sought-after marques, and I rather doubt that will change. Rarity sells. Always has, always will, even if the market is very small.

But, I could be wrong.

Charles Andrews
SoCal