Re: [CR]Re: Me "calling a spade a spade"/Brian Baylis message

(Example: Racing:Beryl Burton)

Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:34:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <>
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Me "calling a spade a spade"/Brian Baylis message
To: "" <>,
In-Reply-To: <>

I have to agree with Richie on this one. I think we are sometimes guilty here of letting "the best be enemy of the good". I applaud Colnago, Derosa, Tommasini, Gios, Pinarello and others for having made lugged steel frames in recent years, often playing on the retro theme. And The Cinelli Supercorsa of course has continued to be available, albeit made from modern tubing and with modern lugs, but retaining the distinctive seat cluster and fork crown. Are these the same as the classic era one? Certainly not. Are they as good? Maybe not. But I think they are a hell of a lot more satisfying than the TIGed or molded carbon stuff that dominates the mainstream market. The only reason I haven't bought one of these myself is that I find used classic stuff cheaper. In fact, I sort of did buy some of these, a late 90's lugged steel Koga/Miyata and two late 90's Bianchi TSX/ULs when these classic type frames were being discontinued. Plus a new Bates and a new lugged steel Caygill. I don't think we can really draw a clear line between the Keepers of the Flame and the higher production lugged steel frames still being produced. Of course, we'd all like a frame from Baylis or Sachs or one of the other framebuilding gods, but a lot of people can't afford one or don't have the patience for the waiting list time. So what's so bad about a current Cinelli Supercorsa as a more affordable, quickly obtainable alternative? It ain't the absolute best obtainable, but it stiil ain't bad, IMHO.


Jerry Moos Houston, TX

"" <> wrote: dale. first things first - i love you and admire your stewardship of this list. i think bb pulled a boner-slash-honest-mistake by posting your offlist mail to the list. you can't unring the bell... however - i'm miffed at some of the text and i'm also tired and bored with this attitude that something is awry if a modern builder uses modern parts in the classic way, as if it's "cheating" to choose these in the frame's manufacture. what the hell is a classic? if the builders that are revered on the cr list timeline never stopped making those "vintage-ish" frames in lieu of the non-ferrous stuff they now offer, they'd surely not have continued with 1" top tubes and r.o.r. chainstays. folks here lament 27 hours a day for stuff they can't get or wish was still available, and a guy like dario comes along and does a great job re-issueing his vision of a modern and classic frame. where is the problem? that he embellishes it with some superlatives? that he actually markets the model and makes note of some rare supplies? perhaps it's a difference of culture. what is wrong with a little spin? retailers do it. importers do it. there's an avenue in nyc that specializes in it. it's not a crime nor is it insidious! i wish dario well and i hope he prospers with a lugged frame. if he does, and maybe even if he doesn't, perhaps other mainstream builders will attempt their own version of a classic. i see no downside to this. oh - and i don't believe that the real VINTAGE framebuilders are on the verge of extinction. my apologies for being so forthright about this; i think better i air my views here than to go offlist with it.
chester, ct

-- wrote:

Ha! Some of you may have thought you missed something.... which you did!

In his recent message to this list, Brian was responding to a private e-mail I copied him from weeks ago about an off topic frame a friend was buying.

He just dorked out and responded to the whole crew.... I had expounded on what I thought was the hot lick and "the true way" of aesthetics, style and mojo, including KOF builders like Mssrs. Baylis, Sachs, Kvale, Gordon, Litton, Johnson, etc, and NOT the famous named but made other places frames/bikes. Highly opinionated, probably in the spirit of what most of you would agree on, but nonetheless OT.

At least that's my story and I am sticking to it. Dale

Dale Brown
cycles de ORO, Inc.
1410 Mill Street
Greensboro, North Carolina 27408
fax 336-274-6360