Re: [CR]Re: CB Allrounder / Avant Coureur


Example: Framebuilders:Norman Taylor

Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:39:57 -0800 (PST)
From: sam lingo <frameteam2003@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: CB Allrounder / Avant Coureur
To: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>, Peter Naiman <hetchinspete1@yahoo.com>, Toni Theilmeier <Toni.Theilmeier@t-online.de>
In-Reply-To: <20041201175703.14991.qmail@web81004.mail.yahoo.com>
cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

The 48/49 catalog(via Chuck Schmidt)shows two bi-lam bikes :the 'Sports Anglais" and the "Avant coureur" the "allrounder" is shown as a lug-less welded frame.(Other welded & bi-lam bikes in the catalog were track type)The Avant Coureur is shown with your style lugs but has the spur dropout .Allrounder&Sports Anglais have your style dropouts.I'm told in 50s several models were combined/dropped etc. Buy the book--Chuck does an excelent job on it--all detail of the original catalog is re-produced--no fuzzy pics! well worth the small price sam lingo,pleasanton tx

Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> wrote: I haven't yet seen photos of the Avant Coureur versus the Allrounder in 1949, 1950, or 1951. The catalogs in 1952 and 1953 and a list member's bike in 1956 all indicate that this was the Allrounder pattern from 1952 forward. That would mean the touting of the Allrounder in the 1953 catalog as now having the original CB bilaminate design would actually have been referring to an Allrounder design adopted at least one year earlier. One CR member mentioned a Chuck Schmidt catalog, I think for 1949, that showed the Avant Coureur with the pattern later used on the Allrounder. I haven't seen that catalog, but since you posted the photos of my bike, perhaps Chuck can tell us if its lug pattern matches that of the Avant Coureur in a 1949, 1950 or 1951 catalog. You're right, this sleuthing about for CB model ID's does provide a change of pace from the Masi discussions.

Regards,

Jerry Moos Hosston, TX

Peter Naiman wrote: Jerry; In correct because the catalogue that I have cpies of with the lug pattern similar to yours is from January of 1952, so your frame if an Avant Coureur would haveto be from 1951 or before.

Do you have copies of the earlier catalogue showing the lug pattern of your frame indicating it to be a Coureur. If so, could you please send it along.

Anybody wanna look up Sherlocke Holmes on this one.

Peter(don't call me Sherlocke) Naiman

P.S. We should include the CR on our discussion. Sorry to Masi, Cinelli fans, but it would be an interesting diversion from the usual ongoing blather about Masi's etc. No insult intended if you both enjoy Masi, but there are other bikes beside those and I find Masi, Cinelli etc and other that do not change style much in 30 years to put my three ounces of grey matter to sleep.

--- Jerome & Elizabeth Moos wrote:
> Peter, it was Toni I believe who faxed me the pages
> from the 1953 catalog a couple of months ago, and we
> both interpreted the text that way at the time, and
> we still could be correct. In fact, I originally
> figured if my bike was a 1953 or later with that lug
> pattern, it would be an Allrounder, but if it was
> 1952 or eralier it would be an Avant Coureur. Of
> course we now know it is 1950. I guess what would
> be conclusive would be a 1949 or better still 1950
> catalog clearly showing both the Avant Coureur and
> the Allrounder of that year. Then we would see if
> in fact the Allrounder pattern of 1953 and on a 1956
> another list member sent me photos of was used in
> 1950 on the Avant Coureur. As Toni says, the text
> in the 1953 catalog does strongly suggest that.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
>
>
>
> Toni Theilmeier wrote:
> Dear Peter and Jerry,
> great photos on the wool thingy website, bilam
> design just like my CB
> which is 1949 and should be an A/C as there´s this
> remark in the 1953
> catalogue which to my mind makes it clear that there
> was a hand-me-down
> effect after all: "New Allrounder Bi-Laminations.
> The original C.B.
> design elaborately feature-cut, bringing the
> advantages of this
> revolutionary bi-laminated technique within the
> reach of all
> lightweight enthusiasts." (p. 4) It says original
> design. There we are.
> The illustrations in the catalogue show the design
> very clearly indeed.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Toni Theilmeier, Belm, Germany.
>
>
> P.S.: In the case of a sudden disruption of an
> e-mail conversation with
> me, please assume that I have given up the medium
> and contact me in a
> more traditional way. I am in the trial phase of a
> last ditch system
> after some others could not stand my constant
> abusing them.
>

--- Jerome & Elizabeth Moos wrote:
> Peter, it was Toni I believe who faxed me the pages
> from the 1953 catalog a couple of months ago, and we
> both interpreted the text that way at the time, and
> we still could be correct. In fact, I originally
> figured if my bike was a 1953 or later with that lug
> pattern, it would be an Allrounder, but if it was
> 1952 or eralier it would be an Avant Coureur. Of
> course we now know it is 1950. I guess what would
> be conclusive would be a 1949 or better still 1950
> catalog clearly showing both the Avant Coureur and
> the Allrounder of that year. Then we would see if
> in fact the Allrounder pattern of 1953 and on a 1956
> another list member sent me photos of was used in
> 1950 on the Avant Coureur. As Toni says, the text
> in the 1953 catalog does strongly suggest that.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
>
>
>
> Toni Theilmeier wrote:
> Dear Peter and Jerry,
> great photos on the wool thingy website, bilam
> design just like my CB
> which is 1949 and should be an A/C as there´s this
> remark in the 1953
> catalogue which to my mind makes it clear that there
> was a hand-me-down
> effect after all: "New Allrounder Bi-Laminations.
> The original C.B.
> design elaborately feature-cut, bringing the
> advantages of this
> revolutionary bi-laminated technique within the
> reach of all
> lightweight enthusiasts." (p. 4) It says original
> design. There we are.
> The illustrations in the catalogue show the design
> very clearly indeed.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Toni Theilmeier, Belm, Germany.
>
>
> P.S.: In the case of a sudden disruption of an
> e-mail conversation with
> me, please assume that I have given up the medium
> and contact me in a
> more traditional way. I am in the trial phase of a
> last ditch system
> after some others could not stand my constant
> abusing them.
>

===== Peter Naiman Alias Hetchinspete4420 North Ardmore AvenueShorewood, WI 53211-1418

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