I see your guys point, but the fact is no one is saying that the frames under discussion are bad. We're just saying that they are not the same. There IS a line. If one has to try to explain or convince another person of this, then I'm sure there is no point in trying to explain where the line is and what makes it so. This is an issue I believe we must all agree to disagree and move on. I doubt if anyone is going to be changing their position. Not everyone sees the bicycle in the same way, nor should we. I'm quite sure what I see and what strikes my attention about bicycles is quite different from you. I respect that. But it's not wise or practical to proclaim that no difference exhists just because you don't recognize or see it. You can trust me for this truth if nothing else in the world, Jerry. I say this having spent countless hours over the past 30+ years being intimately acquainted with everything from pure crap to most of the finest frames in the world, and everything in between. Just looking isn't enough. take some of them apart and put them back together. Build a number of frames and next thing you know; what a frame is and what a frame isn't becomes MUCH clearer. You gotta trust me on this one, Jerry. But I really do know where the line is. Let me say this again. No one is saying one is neccessarily BETTER than the other. That's a matter of personal perference and opinion. Opinions will vary, what's new about that? BUT, BUT, BUT I am saying that there is a difference between the two. What's the difference? Who the hell cares? If the bike presented before you is woody material, who the heck am I to say that shouldn't be? What I'm saying is that what I like may be different. I like lots of different bikes for different reasons. When it comes to vintage bikes or bikes that are "retro" or whatever I judge them by relative craftsmanship. Why should modern frames be all the same. A Masi special and a Peugeot PX-10 aren't the same in my book. Both fine bicycles in my opinion and I have each in my collection, love them all. Force me to make a choice of only one and you know I'm going to take the Masi. I wouldn't be surprized if you prefered the Peugeot. I'd totally respect that choice, too. For your taste, the ride, the look, or whatever; she's your preference. I'm totally OK with that. But don't put them in the same "catagory". You can't. You shouldn't. So why a different standard for modern steel frames?
Anyway. No hard feelings. I respect your view and opinion. I respectfully disagree for the above reasons. Case closed. Bedtime.
Brian Baylis La Mesa, CA This old eye has been around the block a few times. And boy is it tired!
I have to agree with Richie on this one. I think we are sometimes guilty here of letting "the best be enemy of the good". I applaud Colnago, Derosa, Tommasini, Gios, Pinarello and others for having made lugged steel frames in recent years, often playing on the retro theme. And The Cinelli Supercorsa of course has continued to be available, albeit made from modern tubing and with modern lugs, but retaining the distinctive seat cluster and fork crown. Are these the same as the classic era one? Certainly not. Are they as good? Maybe not. But I think they are a hell of a lot more satisfying than the TIGed or molded carbon stuff that dominates the mainstream market. The only reason I haven't bought one of these myself is that I find used classic stuff cheaper. In fact, I sort of did buy some of these, a late 90's lugged steel Koga/Miyata and two late 90's Bianchi TSX/ULs when these classic type frames were being discontinued. Plus a new Bates and a new lugged steel Caygill. I don't think we can really draw a clear line between the Keepers of the Flame and the higher production lugged steel frames still being produced. Of course, we'd all like a frame from Baylis or Sachs or one of the other framebuilding gods, but a lot of people can't afford one or don't have the patience for the waiting list time. So what's so bad about a current Cinelli Supercorsa as a more affordable, quickly obtainable alternative? It ain't the absolute best obtainable, but it stiil ain't bad, IMHO.
Jerry Moos Houston, TX
"firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com> wrote:
first things first - i love you and admire your stewardship
of this list. i think bb pulled a boner-slash-honest-mistake
by posting your offlist mail to the list. you can't unring
however - i'm miffed at some of the text and i'm also tired
and bored with this attitude that something is awry if a
modern builder uses modern parts in the classic way, as if
it's "cheating" to choose these in the frame's manufacture.
what the hell is a classic? if the builders that are revered on
the cr list timeline never stopped making those "vintage-ish"
frames in lieu of the non-ferrous stuff they now offer, they'd
surely not have continued with 1" top tubes and r.o.r. chainstays.
folks here lament 27 hours a day for stuff they can't get or
wish was still available, and a guy like dario comes along
and does a great job re-issueing his vision of a modern and
classic frame. where is the problem? that he embellishes it
with some superlatives? that he actually markets the model
and makes note of some rare supplies? perhaps it's a difference
of culture. what is wrong with a little spin? retailers do
it. importers do it. there's an avenue in nyc that specializes
in it. it's not a crime nor is it insidious!
i wish dario well and i hope he prospers with a lugged frame.
if he does, and maybe even if he doesn't, perhaps other mainstream
builders will attempt their own version of a classic. i see
no downside to this.
oh - and i don't believe that the real VINTAGE framebuilders
are on the verge of extinction.
my apologies for being so forthright about this; i think better
i air my views here than to go offlist with it.
Ha! Some of you may have thought you missed something.... which you did!
In his recent message to this list, Brian was responding to a private e-mail I copied him from weeks ago about an off topic frame a friend was buying.
He just dorked out and responded to the whole crew.... I had expounded on what I thought was the hot lick and "the true way" of aesthetics, style and mojo, including KOF builders like Mssrs. Baylis, Sachs, Kvale, Gordon, Litton, Johnson, etc, and NOT the famous named but made other places frames/bikes. Highly opinionated, probably in the spirit of what most of you would agree on, but nonetheless OT.
At least that's my story and I am sticking to it. Dale
cycles de ORO, Inc.
1410 Mill Street
Greensboro, North Carolina 27408