Although this has been copied to Brian, and I used his last post as a launch pad, his was simply one of many that I feel need to be addressed. So, I'm not targeting Brian specifically with my retort.
Sometimes I buy bikes that are too big or too small for me, or with the frame out of my interest level so that I can use the parts on another bike. I'm grateful to often buy them for less that they are "worth". I'm likely to sell the frameset alone then. Sometimes I buy a bike for the frame, and do not want the parts that are on it, regardless of period correct, original, etc. I'm grateful to often buy it for less that it is "worth". I might hoard the parts in a drawer (actually, on a shelf in my basement shop), or I might hoard only some of them, or I might sell them all. Sometimes I buy framesets in order to install my own parts on them. I'm often grateful to find the frameset alone, if the parts that might have been original to it are not of my interest, or out of my economic league. Sometimes I buy parts in order to help complete a project I am or will be working on, or simply to add to my collection. I am often grateful to find these parts alone, if the complete bike that might have originally been equipped with these parts is not of my interest, or out of my economic league. Never have I received hate mail for buying or selling any of these bikes or parts, be it on Ebay or elsewhere, and I sure would have laughed if I had.
My buying and selling behavior is due to my love for the bikes. That love manifests itself in many ways. It means that I love the rush of buying something new to explore, and I love the rush I get when I go downstairs for the umpteenth time to look at the stuff again and again, and I love the rush I get when I think of the value or alleged rarity that some of it has, and I love the rush of taking a completely neglected piece of machinery and cleaning each and every little iota of old dirt, grease, rust and dullness from it, knowing that the piece is ready for another few decades of existence, and I love the rush of reassembling some of those select pieces of machinery into one beautiful system and machine, and I love the rush of riding and/or looking at those machines, and I love the rush of selling some of those pieces of machinery, or complete machines, sending them back out into the world like beautiful little birds that have had their wings mended. Come to think of it, I love the rush of potentially making enough HONEST money through the hobby, in order to allow it to feed itself. Without that, I'm certain that I would not have much here. You see, my buying and selling behavior is due to my love for the bikes.
I bought a Torpado (surprise, surprise) from Italy that I will be bringing to Cirque this (coming) year. It was completed for Torpado's Director of Marketing in Italy, in early 1984 with SLX tubing, and it is said to be the only Torpado ever to have come from the factory equipped with a Campy 50th Anniversary gruppo (relatively low number 0990, out of about 14,500). I paid a butload for the bike because of my love for them ... which includes the rush of having a 50th gruppo with it's alleged value. The price was far beyond what any normal minded individual would pay, but when it comes to what I feel are special Torpados, most know that I am certainly far from normal minded. In fact, I probably would only barely break even, at best, were I to chop the bike up now and sell all of the parts individually on Ebay. Subtract from that value, the huge amount of hours and energy spent detailing each part, as previously described. Although I have no intention of breaking it up, this is my bike, and I can play with it any way I feel like, as long as it doesn't break the law, or my sense of moral values. I say "my sense", because it is MY BIKE. We sometimes humbly say that we are just caring for, or paying to borrow, or renting the bikes we keep ... I like to call it the "buy it to borrow it" plan. But take away the mumbo jumbo, and we see that we own what we own, and can keep it, or sell it if we like. No one disputes that, I'm sure. If you do, then you are entitled to treat your bikes any way you see fit, but you can stick it in your ear if you intend to slight me for honestly and openly treating mine as mine. Parts that I will sell or have sold, will move on to be united with other parts, either in component collections, or bike assemblies, and to "live again" as the new owner sees fit. How many here have benefited by obtaining that perfect part from our pal Matteo in Firenze? The answer surely is that many, many have benefited, and many of those have spoken out against his, mine, and other respectable CR member's practices.
To speak of parts languishing away in drawers is absolutely absurd to me. These parts will only increase in rarity as years flit by, by nature of dispersion and disposal. If you say: "How can you waste a part by not using it?", then another can retort: "How can you waste a part by using it?" Greedy to keep them? Greedy to sell them? Is there a recovery book for codependents who love their bikes too much? In the extended words of the illustrious Tom Sanders: "SHEEEEEEEEESH!"
Buyers pride NOW! Seller's pride NOW! WE DEMAND RESPECT! WE DEMAND RESPECT! WE DEMAND RESPECT! Come on people ... let's march...
Ciao, Mark Agree (impassioned as a result of angry sillyphosophy in) Southfield MI
P.S. I too believe in the "we're all on the same team here" idea, which is why I have spoken out. Please draw the love from my post. If I didn't care, I wouldn't care to have responded. :) ~ ~ ~
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:55:37 GMT From: "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com> To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: [CR]Parting out bikes, final word from me
Everyone is reading WAY too much into what I have said and meant on this subject. Let me try to be really clear this time.
What angers me is only one thing. IF someone were to run into a bike that is obviously NOS or in very good condition and it is known to be "original", especially if it has parts that are specific to that make and year, I feel it's a shame to seperate the frame and the parts for maximum profit. If one were to own such a thing and felt they MUST change the stem for a perfect fit (so they could ride and enjoy it) then as long as they use their head and find the correct replacement who the hell is going to complain. Not me. Probably a good idea to keep the original anyway, though.
Parting out bikes with parts that are common, who really cares? Again, not me. We all benifit from that. I'm sure most of us have done that, although not me. I'm not into wheeling and dealing parts. I only buy what I need and intend to use. But if others flip stuff to get what they're after, fine. Personally, I prefer to find stuff that is largely intact and finish it out. Example, the 1970 Rickert I bought at Velo Rendezvous a few months ago. Had a 1984 rear der. and new logo bar and stem, but otherwise looks pretty close to correct. I don't care if what looks correct is original to the bike or not, just want to change out the improper parts when I have time and find the right stuff. I have the pieces to make a correct rear der. in my box of junk, so I'll put that together in time. Meanwhile I'll ride her as is.
I have a 1971 Masi GC that I bought from the original owner. I met the guy when I was 19 years old and he had just purchased the bike shortly that. He was an older gentleman at the time, rode the bike a total of maybe 1500 to 2000 miles, kept it in his bedroom closet whenever not in use. I kept track of that bike for 26 years, calling him every so often to make sure if he decided to sell it that I got a shot at it. In 1998 he moved to a retirement home and no longer had a closet to store it in, so he called me. The bike still has the original factory installed white cloth tape on the bars, the little grey plastic thingy for the cables, the whole nine yards. He ordered it with Schreen Weltmeister rims. Never seen another one like it. All of the cable clamps and brake cable crimps are original with the factory yellow paint on them. Do you think for a second I would even so much as sell the little grey cable gizmo? I'm sure there are plenty of buys on the list who would kill to have it and pay me stupid money to have it. NOT FOR SALE!! I've had plenty of offers, too! That's what I'm saying.
If you run into something like that, leave it alone. Why even change the exact crankset for another one EXACTLY like it? NO point in it. If you need longer cranks to ride it, stick them on but keep the original. If you find something NOS, even if its an ItalVega or a PX-10, leave it alone. That's all I gotta say.
La Mesa, CA