It was my understanding that De Rosa built the =93pro-team=94 frames for both Benotto and Moser. The frames had the trademark diamond shaped chainstays which were unique to De Rosa. When I was employed at =93Bike Tech=94 in Bristol UK back in the mid 80=92s we received a batch of 50 = Moser frames including one Gis Team frame which had the diamond stays (very short!),plus number boss and a De Rosa flat fork crown,it was beautiful,painted in Italian blue with white panels and chrome seat stays,chainstays and forks! Unfortunately it was 55cm which was too big for me! On another note,its very cold here at the moment, commuting is not fun even on my 1967 Holdsworth fixed wheel! Thursday nights ride of 10 miles was spent riding into a snow storm=85should I wimp out and buy a car??!!!!???
Regards Steve Clarke (aka Nobby) St John St Cycles 91-93 St John Street Bridgwater Somerset TA6 5HX Tel: 01278-441520 (Int ++44-1278-441520) Fax: 01278 431107 (Int ++44-1278-431107) mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org / email@example.com http://www.sjscycles.com The information contained in this message may be confidential and is intended for the addressee only. Any unauthorised use, dissemination of the information, or copying of this message is prohibited. If you are not the addressee, please notify the sender immediately by return email and delete this message. The views expressed in this email are not that of the organisation unless specified within the message. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus, or other defect which might affect any computer or system into which they are received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that they are virus free and no responsibility is accepted by St John St Cycles for any loss or damage from receipt or use thereof.
-----Original Message----- From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] On Behalf Of firstname.lastname@example.org Sent: 28 February 2004 02:22 To: email@example.com Subject: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 14, Issue 114
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1. Re: Museums near Coventry (Steve Neago) 2. Re: Benotto DeRosa link 3. Re Museums near Covenrty (Pete Paine) 4. Willing to wait?? (Grant McLean) 5. Re: Paris Bike Shops in March ... (Jan Heine) 6. Re: Paris Bike Shops in March ... (Fred Rafael Rednor) 7. Re: Benotto DeRosa link, ,,,,,,,,,,,Benotto Mexico Production 8. Clement Kevlar Tubular Tires for Sale: (Bradley Woehl) 9. Test (jerrymoos) 10. Sutherlands 3rd Ed. on Ebay (Eric Elman) 11. Re: Benotto DeRosa link 12. Re: Classicrendezvous Digest, Worth the wait? 13. RE: Bike Shops in Northern Italy (Chris Ioakimedes) 14. Chris King vintage headsets? 15. Paging Kim in Berlin... akimbo, are you out there?
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:45:32 -0500 From: "Steve Neago" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: <email@example.com>, <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: Re: [CR]Museums near Coventry Message-ID: <004a01c3fd83$6880cb00$cbb71b18@test1> References: <29950-2200425272075975@M2W054.mail2web.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 1
Since Raleigh manufacturing is now gone from England, does anyone know if and where in the world there is a vintage Raleigh bike museum? It hard to believe that the worlds largest bike manufacturer 20 years ago has shriveled up and moved to a different continent with leaving a trace of its heritage in a dedicated museum...
Regards, Steve Neago
Well the obvious one IN Coventry is the best in Britain: the Coventry Transport Museum. I visited this back in 1985: packed with motorcars, motorcycles and bicycles and of course, featuring the local makes mostly including the peerless Rudge-Whitworth. Loads of cycles on display, posters and the like. And if you love the Morris Minor, even better still! Birmingham is a stone's throw away but although I visited the Science and Transport Museum there, I don't recall lots on the once enormous cycle industry around there.
I suspect it's been jazzed up since then but it was a huge, fascinating place and an easy walk from the railway station. Coventry is a great town and you can't beat Midlands hospitality. The true Heart of England.
Is the Raleigh archives accesible to researchers at the Univ of Nottingham?? That's also a very easy journey from Coventry. When I visited in 1985 as well, you could still tour, by appointment, the Raleigh works in Triumph Road, Lenton. All of course gone now.
Peter Kohler Washington DC USA
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:49:16 +0000 From: email@example.com To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org (Classic Rendezvous) Subject: Re: [CR]Benotto DeRosa link Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Precedence: list Message: 2
> Does any of the members out there know anything of a link between these two
> companies ? Did DeRosa once build frames for Benotto ? I have seen quite a few
> Benotto frames with a trademark DeRosa heart cutout in the BB shell and the
> 3000 model of the late 70s early 80s had the trademark diamante section
> chainstays with DuBois lugs. I have been told by (I Believe) a reliable source
> Benotto never actually made frames in Italy, they were made by someone else and
> that the only production facility that they ever had is in mexico. Another
> version is that the production transferred there sometime in the mid eighties
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but your imagined reliable source isn't very dependable this time. Firstly, Benotto as an Italian builder is far older than De Rosa, Colnago, Cinelli, Masi... They were founded in 1931 and were already a highly revered brand before the start of WWII. Cino Cinelli raced for Benotto as did many top name riders through the years. I know of at least 4 Benotto cambio corsa bikes/frames from the 40's-50's, in the hands of CR listmembers: Aldo Ross has one, Curtis Anthony has one and I have two (the one on the CR Benotto webpage and another in Italy that I will be bringing over shortly). I also have a 1940's Benotto track bike. An Olympic gold medal was also won in 1948 on a Benotto bike...
As far as the 'trademark' heart cut-out on the bottom bracket of De Rosa bikes, I have owned many De Rosa frames (including two in my garage right now) and none of them has ever had a heart cut-out. The heart-shaped cut-out was therefore not deemed to be a defining feature of De Rosa bikes, even though certain frames do have them. Anybody could use a heart cut-out if they so desired.
It is my understanding that initially, Benotto himself did build the frames carrying the family name. The subsequent generations were seemingly not as directly involved with production, so by the time that the move to Mexico did take place 40 years later, it is completely possible that no member of the Benotto family was involved in production and that the frames were made outside, just like what happened with parts of the production of Colnago, Masi, Pinarello, Cinelli... etc. De Rosa is one of the rare companies that only made in house in those years. This in-house production also did mean that they never really had excess production capacity, so it is highly unlikely that they would have built for Benotto.
-- Steven Maasland Moorestown, NJ ------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:50:36 -0000 From: "Pete Paine" <email@example.com> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: [CR]Re Museums near Covenrty Message-ID: <016501c3fd84$1d486520$e4348151@010118420008> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 3
Hello all Coventry is the place to start. There is Coventry transport museum, = with loads of stuff including the famous Bartlett collection of cycles. The other place often overlooked in Coventry is the main library which = has a wonderful collection of books and catalogs. You could spend a day = there alone!!
Regards Pete Paine Watford
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:05:29 -0500 From: Grant McLean <Grant.McLean@SportingLife.ca> To: "Classic Rendezvous Mail List (E-mail)" <email@example.com> Subject: [CR]Willing to wait?? Message-ID: <D40031E5F7ACD71195BC009027887CFF118AEA@SLSERVER> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Precedence: list Message: 4
Just so you know, it wasn't a shot across anyone's bow. The direction I was hoping this thread was going to go was about which builders people most wanted to have a frame from, or possibly what their "dream frame" would be like.
Grant McLean Toronto.Ca
O \O/ _< \_ _< _ (_)>(_) (_)>(_)
rom: firstname.lastname@example.org To: Grant.McLean@SportingLife.ca Cc: email@example.com Subject: Re: [CR]Willing to wait?? Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 17
The backlong isn't all there is to the picture. One thing that is often overlooked is how many frames are made during any given period, say per year. My numbers vary quite a bit. The problem for me in recent years, quite frankly, is my involvement on this list. It has increased the volume of business I had prior to joining this "club" by a considerable amount. The complexity and extensive nature of a lot of these projects added to the amount of it, causes serious distraction from framebuilding. My backlog, from now, will change quite a bit in a short time in a positive direction. But in recent years, no more than two frames per year have been produced. The way I build frames and the type of frames I produce requires a very different attitude and approach to the construction of the frame. It requires focusing on each aspect of the building process for at least a certain period of time. With all this other stuff to do and think about, it can be difficult for me to accomplish.
What happens when someone waits for a Baylis frame, is they are rewarded with my best efforts and all of the creative features that they desired in their "dream bike". Technically, it will not look like any other bike I've ever built, if only in a few subtle ways, and it won't look like any other bike anyone else has ever built either. Even in the case of my replicas, I build in subtle differences to insure there is no confusion in the future. And I mean in the DISTANT future, when none of us are here to explain anything. My focus is on making the FEWEST frames of any framebuilder of my era, but making amongst the most unique, refined, and creative while still operating within the bounds of the "traditional" frame. Obviously, Marios' 135 is a number I've already surpassed, but I'm reasonably sure I haven't built up to 500 yet. Many years down the road, the "big" names in the framebuilding world will be sorted out partially based on the number of them that are available. They will discover that my bikes are considerably more rare than most, and each one was built for a specific purpose and posseses it's own unique look and personality. The hand of the builder will be unmistakable in every one of them. The original owners of such bikes will indeed be a relatively small number. I think my approach to framebuilding and my way of thinking is somewhat contrary to the standard business practices of professional framebuilders. It puts me outside of a certain number of people who take a more "businesslike" approach. That's what makes us all unique. I actually sort of prefer to be this way anyhow. It makes me feel eccentric.
There will be a few positive changes to the way I approach my "business" in the near future, but my basic purpose and philosophy will remain unchanged. The best news is, the wait will eventually be reduced to a "managable" level and the frames will probably reach about 6 per year or possibly a few more, depending how much I have to cover painting and other things in the new company.
Brian Baylis La Mesa, CA Marketing is everything.
La Mesa, CA
Ok, so what's the longest you'd be willing to wait for a "keeper of the flame" frame? Does anyone know who has the longest queue?
Baylis ? Columbine ? Bill Davidson ? Eisentraut ? JP Weigle ? Richard Moon ? Alex Singer ?
recently checked: Richard Sachs 24-36 months Roland Della Santa 24 months Mariposa 6-12 months Nagasawa 10-12 months
Grant McLean Toronto.Ca
O \O/ _< \_ _< _ (_)>(_) (_)>(_)
To: Jan Heine <email@example.com>, firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: [CR]Paris Bike Shops in March ... Message-ID: <email@example.com> In-Reply-To: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 6
> Overall, beyond the Singer shop, there isn't that > much of interest left in Paris. Bicloune is nice, > they sometimes have cool older bikes for sale. > Otherwise, there aren't many shops at all - most > have gone away, sadly.
Yes. Even the once great "La Maison du Velo" is no longer open. I mentioned this to Don in an off-list message but I realized it would be best to give it a wider distribution in case anyone else is going to Paris. Regards, Fred Rednor - Arlington, Virginia
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:34:05 EST From: Bikerdaver@aol.com To: email@example.com, Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Benotto DeRosa link, ,,,,,,,,,,,Benotto Mexico Production Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7
I can chime in as to whether actual Benotto family members were involved with frame production in Mexico. Not that long ago---actually it was 1996---I was on a flight down to Lima with a stop over in Mexico City. The main issue, it was long flight any way you look at it. During the LA to Mexico portion, I had the pleasure of sitting next to this semi-elderly woman that I now guess is in her mid-70s. She was sprite, outgoing and spoke English with very little accent. While making small talk, I brought up the mention of bicycles (obviously my favorite subject). Her eyes lit up as if I had surprised her somehow. She then chimes in that she is originally from Italy and her son brought the family bicycle business to Mexico and if I had heard of the name, Benotto! Well obviously, my eyes then lit up as she tells me that while she no longer lives in Mexico City, one of her sons still does and some portion of the Benotto operations still resides there. She indicated that no family member was an actual frame builder in the Mexico factory, but merely supervised production efforts with a few builders they brought over from Italy. I recall her telling me that the actual son that brought the productions over to Mexico was no longer there, but a younger son remains. I also got the impression that the frames are no longer be made there, but some type of operations still do. In any case, I can't recall what portion of their operations still remain, but I can distinctly recall the animated and proud presence this woman exuded once she found out that I was some sort of bike nut. Its a small world I guess. Cheers- Dave Anderson Cut Bank MT
p.s. for the life of me, i can't recall this woman's name, but I think it was something like "Abby" or Abagail. Yes, I know that doesn't sound Italian, sorry.
In a message dated 2/27/2004 2:51:11 PM PST, email@example.com writes: It is my understanding that initially, Benotto himself did build the frames carrying the family name. The subsequent generations were seemingly not as directly involved with production, so by the time that the move to Mexico did take place 40 years later, it is completely possible that no member of the Benotto family was involved in production and that the frames were made outside, just like what happened with parts of the production of Colnago, Masi, Pinarello, Cinelli... etc. De Rosa is one of the rare companies that only made in house in those years. This in-house production also did mean that they never really had excess production capacity, so it is highly unlikely that they would have built for Benotto.
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:45:20 -0800 From: "Bradley Woehl" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]Clement Kevlar Tubular Tires for Sale: Message-ID: <017101c3fd8b$c4460330$1cedfea9@XPEGGIE> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 8
Hello CR listmembers:
Clement Kevlar Tubular Tires for Sale:
Clement Futura Kevlar Tubular tires=20 Great training and road tire Circa 1983/4 produced until 1990 This tire replaced the Clement Ritmo tire=20 These were some of the first Kevlar tubular tires available Weight: 350 grams Width: 22.5mm Black tread with honey colored cotton casing Perfect for restorations and low mileage bikes These tires have been stored in a moderate temperature
SPECIAL One time offer, while supplies last
$16 each $15 each 6 or more $14 each at 10 or more=20
Call me at 415.664.4545 to pay by credit card or Email me with your zip = code and the number of tires you want and you can send a money order. = Credit card payment is preferred and faster.
Bradley Woehl American Cyclery San Francisco, CA 94117 (415) 664-4545 http://www.americancyclery.com
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:28:27 -0600 From: "jerrymoos" <email@example.com> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: [CR]Test Message-ID: <02b801c3fd91$c9554600$efddfea9@mooshome> References: <403EC721.AEDAE03B@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9
Testing if my list access is reenabled - sorry.
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:34:07 -0500 From: "Eric Elman" <email@example.com> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: [CR]Sutherlands 3rd Ed. on Ebay Message-ID: <000401c3fd92$93836420$764ee544@elman1> References: <403EC721.AEDAE03B@earthlink.net> <02b801c3fd91$c9554600$efddfea9@mooshome> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 10
Thought the list may be interested.
No relation to seller in any way.
Eric Elman Somers, CT
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 00:54:53 +0000 From: email@example.com To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org (Classic Rendezvous) Subject: [CR]Re: Benotto DeRosa link Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Precedence: list Message: 11
Elvis' ghost popped around long enough to write the following to me off-list (without any capitals!!!!!!!):
"benotto frames from mexico were made by the garzas, jaime and raul. their company made the handmade benotto models that were identical to derosa in 90% of the details; dubois lugs, pointed ss caps, diamond c'stays, and the like. the son, raul, refined his skills while working for derosa, though briefly. i think he was there on behalf of the benotto enterprise. this all is early 70s lore. i know this because the father, jaime and i shared bs sessions with raul at successive ny bike shows through the middle 70s. what i know about this comes/came from them."
So the link between De Rosa and Benotto exists but is not what Pete's source told him.
-- Steven Maasland Moorestown, NJ
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:46:06 EST From: CYCLESTORE@aol.com To: email@example.com Cc: CYCLESTORE@aol.com Subject: [CR]Re: Classicrendezvous Digest, Worth the wait? Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 12
In a message dated 2/27/04 8:00:43 PM,
>Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:12:47 EST
>Subject: [CR]Re: Willing to wait
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1"
>>Ok, so what's the longest you'd be willing to wait for
>>a "keeper of the flame" frame?=3DA0 Does anyone know who
>>has the longest queue?
>>Bill Davidson=3DA0 ?
>>JP Weigle ?
>>Richard Moon ?
>>Alex Singer ?
>>Richard Sachs=3DA0 24-36 months=3DA0 =3DA0=3DA0
>>Roland Della Santa=3DA0 24 months
>>Mariposa=3DA0 6-12 months
>>Nagasawa=3DA0 10-12 months
>I heard Richard Moon's wait is up over several years and is probably not= =3D20
>accepting orders (anyone know for sure?).
>How about Peter Johnson and Chris Kvale? Also, has anyone on the list
>ordered a Toei? Would like to know what his wait would be. In fact,
>really like to hear ANY details about him that are current... I've heard
>is no longer a single builder but rather a small multi-person shop and
>frames aren't what they used to be... Any truth to this?
This waiting business comes from the taste level of the average CR rider (an= d=20 others) being quite high and the quest something unique and special. Most o= f=20 us are collecting off the peg production bikes (even though top of the=20 product line) or custom bikes previously built for someone else.
True made to measure (for you or others) or high style, form or function=20 machines are not only beautiful to own and use but also very valuable. Uniqu= e=20 features are always conversation starters with other cycling enthusiasts.
The joke around our shop is if you don't wait 6 months or more for a bike=20 it's probably not worth having. Then again there is some merit to this is i= f=20 they were easier to get they might be quite common or ordinary. I always lik= e the=20 folks that want a real custom bike but want to ride it first (like it's=20 possible before it's actually built).
Some of my own experience and records.
Rene Herse demontable, Camper, randonnuse: Delivery 9 months after payment=20 (not bag)
Mariposa Constructed front Carrier for above Rack with Chrome by Rolls Royce= =20 (2-3 months)
Alex Moulton Touring Classic north road Spec, Fastest 5 weeks. Slowest 7=20 Months.
Alex Moulton Stainless New Series North Road Spec, Fastest 15 weeks, slowest= =20 29 Weeks.
Alex Moulton Stainless New Series with many custom features, Slowest 11.5=20 Months.
Pashley traditional 5 Speed Internal Hub Fastest, 3 Weeks Delivered; Slowest= =20 20 weeks.
How about service: I once had may tandem extensively modified with construction low gravity low= =20 rider carriers and platforms front and rear. I was all completely chromed=20 including carriers in 6 days without an appointment in Belgium. Very Slow.
54 year old restoration slow start record: 14 Months in house but we have it= =20 scheduled this week. The customer was not in a hurry and we tried to turn=20 them away multiple times but they wouldn't here of it.
Quality take time and rushing rarely make things better. The delays from=20 start to finish sometimes have transport delays, extra engineering time, fin= ish=20 subcontracting, parts or component sourcing and of course the biggy; workloa= d=20 backlog.
Slower is not always better, sometime it just makes things possible.
Yours in Cycling,
North Road Bicycle Company 519 W. North St. Raleigh, NC 27603 USA Toll Free Ph: 800=E2=80=A2321=E2=80=A25511 Local Ph: 919=E2=80=A2828=E2=80=A28999 E-mail: email@example.com ------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:43:23 -0800 From: "Chris Ioakimedes" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: <email@example.com>, <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: RE: [CR]Bike Shops in Northern Italy Message-ID: <000001c3fd9c$438f82f0$806e0518@kentro> In-Reply-To: <email@example.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 13
One time when I was in Milan, and needed a bike part, I went to Donaselli "la bici Milano", they took good care of me, I didn't even speak Italian then.... While in Northern Italy, he should also go to the chapel of the patron saint of cycling Madonna di Ghisallo, on his new bike of course. chris ioakimedes Fairfax California
-----Original Message----- From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] On Behalf Of firstname.lastname@example.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 9:55 AM To: email@example.com Subject: [CR]Bike Shops in Northern Italy
I have a friend who is going to be in Northern Italy next week and is interested in getting a new bike. Does anyone know any good shops either in Milano or north of there? Classic Content: This person once saw a classic bike.
sorry for the diversion and thanks in advance