Hi Rick, I beleive BC and sells these by the handfulls. Infact I beleive I saw a pair he was selling on ebay currently. Scott Ramsay Kernersville, NC
>From: classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org
>Reply-To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 14, Issue 116
>Date: 28 Feb 2004 11:39:51 -0800
>
>Send Classicrendezvous mailing list submissions to
> classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of Classicrendezvous digest..."
>
>
>CR
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Low Bids for Campagnolo Equipped Bikes on Ebay
> 2. FS- 01 Steel Serotta-54 cm (Alec Bradlow)
> 3. Re: FS- 01 Steel Serotta-54 cm (Warren & Elizabeth)
> 4. NEW PICS UP (Kirk Pacenti)
> 5. Cool shops in London (Brandon Ives)
> 6. Chris King headsets - retro
> 7. WTB: Campag brake centerbolts (Rick and Freddi Robbins)
> 8. Re: Situation Desperate--Frame prices and demand (Taz Taylor)
> 9.
> Just listed a bike for sale on ebay check it out under seller
> wornoutguy
> 10. Re: Tange Infinity
> 11. Re: Situation Desperate--Frame prices and demand
> 12. Re: Situation Desperate--Frame prices and demand (Richard M Sachs)
> 13. Re: Situation Desperate--Frame prices and demand (Mike Schmidt)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 06:42:04 EST
>From: LouDeeter@aol.com
>To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: [CR]Low Bids for Campagnolo Equipped Bikes on Ebay
>Message-ID: <1e3.1a11fb62.2d71d88c@aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 1
>
>I've included links to four bikes below that are ending today. I don't
>believe I've seen this many with Campagnolo bidding at such low prices in
>quite
>some time. Condition and rarity aside, it sure seems that these are low
>prices
>for "user" Campagnolo equipped bikes. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
>
>
>64cm Trek
>http://ebay.com/<blah>
>8
>
>54cm Merckx by Falcon
>http://ebay.com/<blah>
>8
>
>59cm Bottechia
>http://ebay.com/<blah>
>8
>
>Mystery Frame (Peugeot??)
>http://ebay.com/<blah>
>8
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 06:54:39 -0500
>From: "Alec Bradlow" <alec@bradlow.net>
>To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, <Internet-bob@bikelist.org>
>Cc: tony bike-prioli-hm <tpinthepack.tonyp@verizon.net>
>Subject: [CR]FS- 01 Steel Serotta-54 cm
>Message-ID: <000a01c3fdf1$aea7bd00$6401a8c0@valuedr9qc69k8>
>Content-Type: text/plain;charset="Windows-1252"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Precedence: list
>Reply-To: Alec Bradlow <alec@bradlow.net>
>Message: 2
>
>NOT MINE- This bike is owned by the service mgr at my LBS , it is very =
>nice and fast but that's prob cause of him.
>http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?s=3Da6ab4d4ffe8d6eb5121a7563e=
>52f5479&threadid=3D948
>
>http://tinyurl.com/278tk
>
>alec bradlow-tampa
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:25:01 -0500
>From: Warren & Elizabeth <warbetty@sympatico.ca>
>To: Alec Bradlow <alec@bradlow.net>
>Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: Re: [CR]FS- 01 Steel Serotta-54 cm
>Message-ID: <404096AD.2070703@sympatico.ca>
>In-Reply-To: <000a01c3fdf1$aea7bd00$6401a8c0@valuedr9qc69k8>
>References: <000a01c3fdf1$aea7bd00$6401a8c0@valuedr9qc69k8>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 3
>
>And why is this bike of any interest whatsover, on this list?
>
>Warren Young
>Toronto
>
>Alec Bradlow wrote:
>
> > NOT MINE- This bike is owned by the service mgr at my LBS , it is very
>nice and fast but that's prob cause of him.
> >
>http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?s=a6ab4d4ffe8d6eb5121a7563e52f5479&threadid=948
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/
> >
> > alec bradlow-tampa
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:30:45 -0400
>From: "Kirk Pacenti" <kirk@bikelugs.com>
>To: internet-bobo@bikelist.org
>Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: [CR]NEW PICS UP
>Message-ID: <20040228133045.M77212@bikelugs.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Precedence: list
>Message: 4
>
>New pic's of Tom B's Waterford.
>
>Enjoy!
>
>http://www.bikelugs.com/pacentigallery/waterford_gallery/index.html
>
>Kirk Pacenti
>Pacenti Cycle Design
>www.bikelugs.com
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:03:18 +0100
>From: Brandon Ives <monkeylad@mac.com>
>To: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>Subject: [CR]Cool shops in London
>Message-ID: <3E0D4ADE-69FF-11D8-B585-00039356BD92@mac.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552)
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 5
>
>Howdy folks,
>MItzi and I are heading to London for almost a week on March 4th and
>I'd like to visit a good shop or two while I'm there. Are there any
>builders still in London? If you know of cool shops in London drop me
>a line off-line since I'm not receiving CR posts these days?
>
>OT stuff for those that care, Mitzi and I are doing fine here in the
>low lands. The snow which has kept us from riding also cancelled the
>Het Volk this morning. Too bad since the start line was less than a
>kilometer from our place. Mitzi's still doing research and I'm taking
>a Nederlands (Dutch) class. Ik sprek een beetje Nederlands. If you
>still care you can always check out our blog at the link at the bottom
>of this email. Anyway. . . (Bianchi team van just parked outside my
>window). . . any leads folks have on London shops would be great.
>thanks,
>Brandon"monkeyman"Ives
>Currently of Gent, Belgium
>Was of Santa Barbara, Calif.
>To be of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.
>++++++++++++++++++
>"Sine coffea nihil sum."
> --Sarah Vowell--
>++++++++++++++++++
>
>Read why this email is coming from Belgium at our blog:
><http://homepage.mac.com/monkeylad/iblog/B1185361492/index.html>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:23:17 EST
>From: M4Campy@aol.com
>To: Grant.McLean@SportingLife.ca,
> Classic Rendezvous <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>Subject: [CR]Chris King headsets - retro
>Message-ID: <d2.64a3ba9.2d720c65@aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 6
>
>Ok, my brains and story got scrambled a bit but I got it straight now.
>Grant
>Mclean posted a message in 2002 about a possible production run of vintage
>Chris King headsets. Grant was
>trying to guage interest to see if anyone would preorder.
>
>At the same time Dale brought up the no-logo headsets and had an order for
>a
>bunch:) They
>are two different things.
>
>http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Chris_KING.htm
>
>Anyway, the deal never happened and does not look like it ever will:(
>
>Thanks to all who responded!
>
>Mike Wilkinson
>Castle Rock, CO
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:35:48 -0500
>From: "Rick and Freddi Robbins" <rfrobb@wcoil.com>
>To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>Subject: [CR]WTB: Campag brake centerbolts
>Message-ID: <NAENLKHKPNACPHLFPNAOCEOICDAA.rfrobb@wcoil.com>
>In-Reply-To: <CATFOODFjv1O5YIkGqs00000dcc@catfood.nt.phred.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 7
>
>Listmembers,
>
>I want to convert a set of Campy SR from a recessed to nutted frameset.
>Looking for Campy part # 2012 (I think). Does anyone have a pair for sale
>or
>know where I can pick up a pair? I checked a number of online sites (like
>Baron's) and can't seem to locate a set. Any info would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks
>Rick Robbins
>Ada, Ohio
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:10:33 -0500
>From: "Taz Taylor" <taztaylor@mindspring.com>
>To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, <Grant.McLean@SportingLife.ca>
>Subject: Re: [CR]Situation Desperate--Frame prices and demand
>Message-ID: <002401c3fe15$671c92c0$0400a8c0@ibm>
>References: <CATFOODyfPefLJGWSa1000012e4@catfood.nt.phred.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 8
>
>Grant,
>
>This is the other side of pricing your work below it's true market value.
>Time=money, so if someone is waiting six months or three years for a frame,
>it's true cost is greater than the dollars they pay to the builder.
>
>Certainly, the allure of owning a Weigle or Baylis is partly from the
>exclusivity, but I don't think waiting increases its desirablity. It may
>make the owner more emotionally invested if they waited a long period of
>time.
>
>Although you can't pop into Richard's or Brian's shop and leave with a
>frame
>immediately, I think you could get one back in 1 or 2 weeks. (I believe
>that's how long they've said it takes them to build one frame). It's a
>question of how much you're willing to pay. If a builder builds frames for
>a living and not as a hobby, they will move you up the waiting list if
>you're willing to pay more.
>
>If a builder doesn't respond to the offer to pay more by accepting or
>raising his prices, he's going to create a gray market (or scalper's
>market)
>where people buy his frames just to turn around and sell them for a higher
>price, capturing the excess value for himself that the builder left on the
>table. This is more difficult for bicycle frames than other items since
>they are customized to the buyer's specific body dimensions but it can
>still
>happen, or the scalper can sell his place in the queue when it nears the
>top. Bicycles are not immune from market forces.
>
>I think you are shedding some light on this with your question about wait
>times for various builders.
>
>I'm reluctant to post this to the list because it's moved pretty far
>off-topic and some people get insulted when you suggest they are influenced
>by money. I'm not, it's a very rational influence. Not to suggest there
>aren't others. But anyone who says it's not an influence is either being
>dishonest or irrational (or achieved some Zen-like state where nothing
>beyond actually building the frame exists for them :-) ).
>
>Taz Taylor in Atlanta, GA - going for a ride...
>
> > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:54:00 -0500
> > From: Grant McLean <Grant.McLean@SportingLife.ca>
> > To: "Classic Rendezvous Mail List (E-mail)"
><classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > Subject: Re: [CR]Situation Desperate--Frame prices and demand
> >
> > Taz, Lou, whoever is still following this thread,
> >
> > Imagine what the demand for frames from small custom shops would be
> > if you could walk into a frame shop, buy one, and go home with it.
> >
> > Leaving aside the physical impossibility of filling out an order form,
> > being measured, picking out your lugs and paint jog, and having
> > Brian or E-Richie pop into the back of the shop, and return a few
> > minutes later with your completed frame!
> >
> > The fact that it takes, on average, a few YEARS to get one, certainly
> > reinforces the commitment of the customer! At that point, does it
> > really matter what it costs? You are willing to wait, or you're not.
> > Plus, you've got all that time to save up, come up with an explanation
> > to your spouse, and build that extension on the garage!!
> >
> > The internet has made so many high end items available at only a few
> > clicks away, most people just don't want to wait for things anymore.
> > Maybe that's part of the allure of a Baylis or a Weigle, since you're
> > joining a club when you own one, a club with very patient members!
> >
> > Grant McLean
> > Toronto.Ca
> >
> > O \O/
> > _< \_ _< _
> > (_)>(_) (_)>(_)
> >
> >
> > Peter wrote:
> >
> > > > If you have more work than you can possibly handle, that, by
>definition,
> > means that your prices are too low.
> >
> > Lou replied:
> >
> > > I disagree. The basic assumption is that you have efficient output
>and
> > that you are working at a sustained and consistent efficiency. In other
> > words, if you were able to build 10 frames per month, but now your
> > efficiency has dropped to 5 frames per month, that doesn't necessarily
>mean
> > you should raise prices just because you can't keep up with your
>workload.
> > On the other hand, if you are still building frames at 10 per month and
>you
> > have orders that would sustain 20 per month, you have to determine
>whether
> > the reason you have those orders is because of your lower price compared
>to
> > the competition. Raising prices may drop demand. If you can raise
>prices
> > without dropping demand, you are certainly in a good position. How to do
> > that is a difficult business decision. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
> > >
> >
> > my 2 cents:
> >
> > As my econ professors kept beating into my head - changing the price of
> > Brian's frames does NOT change demand - it changes the Quantity
>demanded.
> > Changing some aspect of Brian's frames (like outsourcing the paint) may
> > cause a decrease in demand.
> >
> > For example: if Brian charges $1.00 per frame, then I would buy one
>(maybe
> > even two) and so would many other people. If Brian charges $100,000 per
> > frame, then only Chuck would buy one ;-). At $100,000 I still want one
>so
> > the demand hasn't change but I can't afford it, so only the quantity
> > demanded has changed.
> >
> > Now say Brian decides he will only make frames out of paper mache'. I
>don't
> > want any at $1.00 or even $0.01 so there is a change in demand.
> >
> > As far as where Brian should price his frames, that price point would be
> > where the quantity demanded equals the quantity that Brian is *willing*
>to
> > supply and leaves no one with cash in hand saying "I'll pay that price"
> > without getting a frame. That's assuming of course, that Brian's goal
>is
>to
> > maximize his economic gain ($) instead of other objectives. Production
> > efficiency doesn't play a role in demand. (Marginal revenue and
>marginal
> > cost on the other hand...)
> >
> >
> > Taz Taylor - looking for that $1.00 Baylis frame in Atlanta, GA
> >
> > (I knew an Econ degree would come in handy someday...)
> >
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:41:15 EST
>From: Wornoutguy@aol.com
>To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: [CR]
> Just listed a bike for sale on ebay check it out under seller wornoutguy
>Message-ID: <124.2b830339.2d721eab@aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 9
>
>Sam DiBartolomeo
>Riverside CA
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:34:14 EST
>From: RDF1249@aol.com
>To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org, TonyFNitro@aol.com
>Subject: [CR]Re: Tange Infinity
>Message-ID: <195.267bcb7a.2d722b16@aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 10
>
>Tange Infinity was just seamed chrome moly tubing that has been drawn on a
>mandrel to make the seam go away. Not nearly the same as Prestige which is
>drawn from a solid billet of steel like all top tubings and then heat
>treated.
>Prestige is the closest thing to 753 Tange made and is a beautiful tubing
>that
>came out of the box with a flawless almost mirror finish, much nicer than
>Columbus or Reynolds. It had a yield strength of 175,000 psi as I recall.
>We
>(Davidson) made thousands of bikes out of it over the years. Infinity was
>used
>on some basic production bikes.
>
>Bob Freeman
>Seattle
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:38:03 GMT
>From: brianbaylis@juno.com
>To: taztaylor@mindspring.com
>Cc: Grant.McLean@SportingLife.ca
>Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: Re: [CR]Situation Desperate--Frame prices and demand
>Message-ID: <20040228.103857.3575.656918@webmail17.lax.untd.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Precedence: list
>Message: 11
>
>
>
>Taz,
>
>There are a few things that I must correct in terms of what you understand
>regarding the time it takes to build a frame. The build times of various
>builders are not "standarized". There seem to be two basic and distinct
>catagories. The typical effecient long time professional framebuilder is
>shooting for a 15 to 20 hours MAXIMUM build time. The are lots of ways to
>achieve this using "modern" framebuilding parts and methods, even amongst
>lugged steel builders. A feame is generally constructed in a 2.5 to 3 day
>period.
>
>The other catagory, which is not well recognized, are in fact the "art
>builders" whose general production takes AT LEAST 60 hours to complete; and
>can often reach 80 hours and over for something custom designed and unique.
>I can rarely even get in that much effort over the period of a month, even
>if I had nothing else to do. It is not routine work and requires motivation
>and a focused mental approach. The methodology and the primary purpose of
>each of these catagories of frames/framebuilders differs as much as the
>build time does. And there are in fact a few "Zen-like" builders out there.
>It IS NOT about the money. That is not to say that there is no money
>involved; there most certainly is, but these builders have other sources of
>higher monitary returns per hour that the framebuilding. These people
>severly limit their production and produce special works in small
>quanitity, as opposed to trying to make a more profitable product in enough
>volume to make a good living. A more comprehensive explaination may be
>forthcomming from me on this, but it is to appear on the framebuilders'
>list. These distinctions have existed for a long time, but the list of
>actual "zen-like" builders has dwindled to a fairly small number. I was
>just talking to Peter Johnson about this just last night. He plans to build
>about 4 per year.
>
>So some of this does not fit with the traditional business/economic
>guidelines. Zen-like framebuilding is outside that box.
>
>Brian Baylis
>La Mesa, CA
>I can dig the Zen thing; but mountain top cave framebuilding is out!
>
>-- "Taz Taylor" <taztaylor@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Grant,
>
>This is the other side of pricing your work below it's true market value.
>Time=money, so if someone is waiting six months or three years for a frame,
>it's true cost is greater than the dollars they pay to the builder.
>
>Certainly, the allure of owning a Weigle or Baylis is partly from the
>exclusivity, but I don't think waiting increases its desirablity. It may
>make the owner more emotionally invested if they waited a long period of
>time.
>
>Although you can't pop into Richard's or Brian's shop and leave with a
>frame
>immediately, I think you could get one back in 1 or 2 weeks. (I believe
>that's how long they've said it takes them to build one frame). It's a
>question of how much you're willing to pay. If a builder builds frames for
>a living and not as a hobby, they will move you up the waiting list if
>you're willing to pay more.
>
>If a builder doesn't respond to the offer to pay more by accepting or
>raising his prices, he's going to create a gray market (or scalper's
>market)
>where people buy his frames just to turn around and sell them for a higher
>price, capturing the excess value for himself that the builder left on the
>table. This is more difficult for bicycle frames than other items since
>they are customized to the buyer's specific body dimensions but it can
>still
>happen, or the scalper can sell his place in the queue when it nears the
>top. Bicycles are not immune from market forces.
>
>I think you are shedding some light on this with your question about wait
>times for various builders.
>
>I'm reluctant to post this to the list because it's moved pretty far
>off-topic and some people get insulted when you suggest they are influenced
>by money. I'm not, it's a very rational influence. Not to suggest there
>aren't others. But anyone who says it's not an influence is either being
>dishonest or irrational (or achieved some Zen-like state where nothing
>beyond actually building the frame exists for them :-) ).
>
>Taz Taylor in Atlanta, GA - going for a ride...
>
> > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:54:00 -0500
> > From: Grant McLean <Grant.McLean@SportingLife.ca>
> > To: "Classic Rendezvous Mail List (E-mail)"
><classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > Subject: Re: [CR]Situation Desperate--Frame prices and demand
> >
> > Taz, Lou, whoever is still following this thread,
> >
> > Imagine what the demand for frames from small custom shops would be
> > if you could walk into a frame shop, buy one, and go home with it.
> >
> > Leaving aside the physical impossibility of filling out an order form,
> > being measured, picking out your lugs and paint jog, and having
> > Brian or E-Richie pop into the back of the shop, and return a few
> > minutes later with your completed frame!
> >
> > The fact that it takes, on average, a few YEARS to get one, certainly
> > reinforces the commitment of the customer! At that point, does it
> > really matter what it costs? You are willing to wait, or you're not.
> > Plus, you've got all that time to save up, come up with an explanation
> > to your spouse, and build that extension on the garage!!
> >
> > The internet has made so many high end items available at only a few
> > clicks away, most people just don't want to wait for things anymore.
> > Maybe that's part of the allure of a Baylis or a Weigle, since you're
> > joining a club when you own one, a club with very patient members!
> >
> > Grant McLean
> > Toronto.Ca
> >
> > O \O/
> > _< \_ _< _
> > (_)>(_) (_)>(_)
> >
> >
> > Peter wrote:
> >
> > > > If you have more work than you can possibly handle, that, by
>definition,
> > means that your prices are too low.
> >
> > Lou replied:
> >
> > > I disagree. The basic assumption is that you have efficient output
>and
> > that you are working at a sustained and consistent efficiency. In other
> > words, if you were able to build 10 frames per month, but now your
> > efficiency has dropped to 5 frames per month, that doesn't necessarily
>mean
> > you should raise prices just because you can't keep up with your
>workload.
> > On the other hand, if you are still building frames at 10 per month and
>you
> > have orders that would sustain 20 per month, you have to determine
>whether
> > the reason you have those orders is because of your lower price compared
>to
> > the competition. Raising prices may drop demand. If you can raise
>prices
> > without dropping demand, you are certainly in a good position. How to do
> > that is a difficult business decision. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
> > >
> >
> > my 2 cents:
> >
> > As my econ professors kept beating into my head - changing the price of
> > Brian's frames does NOT change demand - it changes the Quantity
>demanded.
> > Changing some aspect of Brian's frames (like outsourcing the paint) may
> > cause a decrease in demand.
> >
> > For example: if Brian charges $1.00 per frame, then I would buy one
>(maybe
> > even two) and so would many other people. If Brian charges $100,000 per
> > frame, then only Chuck would buy one ;-). At $100,000 I still want one
>so
> > the demand hasn't change but I can't afford it, so only the quantity
> > demanded has changed.
> >
> > Now say Brian decides he will only make frames out of paper mache'. I
>don't
> > want any at $1.00 or even $0.01 so there is a change in demand.
> >
> > As far as where Brian should price his frames, that price point would be
> > where the quantity demanded equals the quantity that Brian is *willing*
>to
> > supply and leaves no one with cash in hand saying "I'll pay that price"
> > without getting a frame. That's assuming of course, that Brian's goal
>is
>to
> > maximize his economic gain ($) instead of other objectives. Production
> > efficiency doesn't play a role in demand. (Marginal revenue and
>marginal
> > cost on the other hand...)
> >
> >
> > Taz Taylor - looking for that $1.00 Baylis frame in Atlanta, GA
> >
> > (I knew an Econ degree would come in handy someday...)
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:14:56 -0500
>From: Richard M Sachs <richardsachs@juno.com>
>To: brianbaylis@juno.com
>Cc: taztaylor@mindspring.com
>Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Cc: Grant.McLean@SportingLife.ca
>Subject: Re: [CR]Situation Desperate--Frame prices and demand
>Message-ID: <20040228.141456.4196.40.richardsachs@juno.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 12
>
>we interupt the regularly scheduled programing...
>
>baylisimmo,
>i don't see the connection with "zen" and building that you reference
>here so i went back to the archives and pulled this post from ? years
>ago. here it is:
>----- -----
>this, from my beautiful wife deb, a longtime
>practicing Zen Buddhist:
>"In its simplest form, Zen, as a religion, is
>to 'pay attention', meaning 'pay attention to
>the present moment'. So if you are paying
>attention while filing lugs into intricate shapes,
>that's Zen."
>
>me, i'm a jewdist, so i make my own rules.
>because i think about frames as well as make
>them, my thought on this issue is that a frame
>is a unit, a life form if you will. i see the
>work going into making a lug, or refining a lug,
>or adding adornment to a lug as part of the process
>rather than 'the' process. in essence, for me,
>all the energy spent on creating any one detail of
>a frame should be spread to the making of it in
>its entirety. the lugs are not the frame. the geometry
>is not the frame. the alignment is not the frame.
>the material is not the frame. the frame is the frame.
>----- -----
>to wit, i don't see the connection between "enlightenment" and output.
>in fact, i don't think it's necessarily tangential to commerce either.
>e-RICHIE
>chester, ct
>and chuckie - i missed you!
>
>
>
>
>On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:38:03 GMT brianbaylis@juno.com writes:
>Taz,
>
>There are a few things that I must correct in terms of what you
>understand regarding the time it takes to build a frame. The build times
>of various builders are not "standarized". There seem to be two basic and
>distinct catagories. The typical effecient long time professional
>framebuilder is shooting for a 15 to 20 hours MAXIMUM build time. The are
>lots of ways to achieve this using "modern" framebuilding parts and
>methods, even amongst lugged steel builders. A feame is generally
>constructed in a 2.5 to 3 day period.
>
>The other catagory, which is not well recognized, are in fact the "art
>builders" whose general production takes AT LEAST 60 hours to complete;
>and can often reach 80 hours and over for something custom designed and
>unique. I can rarely even get in that much effort over the period of a
>month, even if I had nothing else to do. It is not routine work and
>requires motivation and a focused mental approach. The methodology and
>the primary purpose of each of these catagories of frames/framebuilders
>differs as much as the build time does. And there are in fact a few
>"Zen-like" builders out there. It IS NOT about the money. That is not to
>say that there is no money involved; there most certainly is, but these
>builders have other sources of higher monitary returns per hour that the
>framebuilding. These people severly limit their production and produce
>special works in small quanitity, as opposed to trying to make a more
>profitable product in enough volume to make a good living. A more
>comprehensive explaination may be forthcomming from me on this, but it is
>to appear on the framebuilders' list. These distinctions have existed for
>a long time, but the list of actual "zen-like" builders has dwindled to a
>fairly small number. I was just talking to Peter Johnson about this just
>last night. He plans to build about 4 per year.
>
>So some of this does not fit with the traditional business/economic
>guidelines. Zen-like framebuilding is outside that box.
>
>Brian Baylis
>La Mesa, CA
>I can dig the Zen thing; but mountain top cave framebuilding is out!
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:25:57 -0500
>From: "Mike Schmidt" <mdschmidt@patmedia.net>
>To: <brianbaylis@juno.com>, "Richard M Sachs" <richardsachs@juno.com>
>Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>Subject: Re: [CR]Situation Desperate--Frame prices and demand
>Message-ID: <000b01c3fe30$b3015480$640a0a0a@linksys>
>References: <20040228.141456.4196.40.richardsachs@juno.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Precedence: list
>Message: 13
>
>Zen and the urge to ride. Spring fever is my religion du jour so I am
>outtahere.
>
>Temperature here in NY is 54 WABCDegrees so my Zen is ride baby ride til I
>have to turn my E6 on and light the way home.
>
>Mike Schmidt
>Stirling, NJ
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Richard M Sachs" <richardsachs@juno.com>
>To: <brianbaylis@juno.com>
>Cc: <taztaylor@mindspring.com>; <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>;
><Grant.McLean@SportingLife.ca>
>Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 2:14 PM
>Subject: Re: [CR]Situation Desperate--Frame prices and demand
>
>
> > we interupt the regularly scheduled programing...
> >
> > baylisimmo,
> > i don't see the connection with "zen" and building that you reference
> > here so i went back to the archives and pulled this post from ? years
> > ago. here it is:
> > ----- -----
> > this, from my beautiful wife deb, a longtime
> > practicing Zen Buddhist:
> > "In its simplest form, Zen, as a religion, is
> > to 'pay attention', meaning 'pay attention to
> > the present moment'. So if you are paying
> > attention while filing lugs into intricate shapes,
> > that's Zen."
> >
> > me, i'm a jewdist, so i make my own rules.
> > because i think about frames as well as make
> > them, my thought on this issue is that a frame
> > is a unit, a life form if you will. i see the
> > work going into making a lug, or refining a lug,
> > or adding adornment to a lug as part of the process
> > rather than 'the' process. in essence, for me,
> > all the energy spent on creating any one detail of
> > a frame should be spread to the making of it in
> > its entirety. the lugs are not the frame. the geometry
> > is not the frame. the alignment is not the frame.
> > the material is not the frame. the frame is the frame.
> > ----- -----
> > to wit, i don't see the connection between "enlightenment" and output.
> > in fact, i don't think it's necessarily tangential to commerce either.
> > e-RICHIE
> > chester, ct
> > and chuckie - i missed you!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:38:03 GMT brianbaylis@juno.com writes:
> > Taz,
> >
> > There are a few things that I must correct in terms of what you
> > understand regarding the time it takes to build a frame. The build times
> > of various builders are not "standarized". There seem to be two basic
>and
> > distinct catagories. The typical effecient long time professional
> > framebuilder is shooting for a 15 to 20 hours MAXIMUM build time. The
>are
> > lots of ways to achieve this using "modern" framebuilding parts and
> > methods, even amongst lugged steel builders. A feame is generally
> > constructed in a 2.5 to 3 day period.
> >
> > The other catagory, which is not well recognized, are in fact the "art
> > builders" whose general production takes AT LEAST 60 hours to complete;
> > and can often reach 80 hours and over for something custom designed and
> > unique. I can rarely even get in that much effort over the period of a
> > month, even if I had nothing else to do. It is not routine work and
> > requires motivation and a focused mental approach. The methodology and
> > the primary purpose of each of these catagories of frames/framebuilders
> > differs as much as the build time does. And there are in fact a few
> > "Zen-like" builders out there. It IS NOT about the money. That is not to
> > say that there is no money involved; there most certainly is, but these
> > builders have other sources of higher monitary returns per hour that the
> > framebuilding. These people severly limit their production and produce
> > special works in small quanitity, as opposed to trying to make a more
> > profitable product in enough volume to make a good living. A more
> > comprehensive explaination may be forthcomming from me on this, but it
>is
> > to appear on the framebuilders' list. These distinctions have existed
>for
> > a long time, but the list of actual "zen-like" builders has dwindled to
>a
> > fairly small number. I was just talking to Peter Johnson about this just
> > last night. He plans to build about 4 per year.
> >
> > So some of this does not fit with the traditional business/economic
> > guidelines. Zen-like framebuilding is outside that box.
> >
> > Brian Baylis
> > La Mesa, CA
> > I can dig the Zen thing; but mountain top cave framebuilding is out!
> >
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 14, Issue 116
>**************************************************