Re: [CR]Re: File Marks

(Example: Events:Cirque du Cyclisme)

From: <"richardsachs@juno.com">
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:49:25 GMT
To: josephbstarck@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [CR]Re: File Marks
cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

listees... my pithy remarks that appear here, to which starck-issimo is replying, were made in a private email that we exchanged, so dontchoo go lookin' in the archives; they're not there! e-RICHIE chester, ct


-- Joe Starck wrote:


--- "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com> wrote:
>
> too late...
> you said it.
> it's "out there"!!!!

And now that I re-read my post, I do recall thinking, as I wrote, of a couple of goofs that did get shipped. What will God, The Devil, and Albert Eisentraut think of me now? Joe Starck, masidon, wi
>
> -- Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com>
> wrote:
>
> > snipped:
> > "Somethimes a framebuilder is judged unfairly
> > by some who've only seen the "oops!"
> >
> >
> > well i guess that says it all, doesn't it.
> > your text is very interesting reading, but
> > at the core of this thread, isn't this (above,
> > your words) really what the issue is; people
> > judging other people's work, whether qualified
> > to do so or not?
> > e-RICHIE
> > chester, ct
> > "there's room on my flaw for you".
>
>
> Richard,
> You may think I've given you a juicy T-bone to chew
> on, and so enjoy it while you can, but, when I wrote
> the "oops!" I meant screw-ups in the shop that
> co-workers or customers could be aware of, "oops!"
> that would either be scrapped or fixed BEFORE it
> went
> out the door. And I'll even swear to God, The Devil,
> and Albert Eisentraut again on that count. Find
> another bone below to chew on.
> Joe Starck,
> masidon, wi
> >
> >
> >
> > -- Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > --- brucerobbins <brucerobbins@supanet.com> wrote:
> >
> > >...The Joe
> > > Starcks of this world never seem to get it that
> > > there is no charm in
> > > perfection. Certainly, one can appreciate his
> > > pain-staking attention to
> > > detail and if you're a bit anal about these
> things
> > > then that's no doubt what
> > > will turn you on.
> >
> >
> > Bruce,
> > "Anal" is not synonomous with "perfection." "Anal
> is
> > derisive. It connotes a disorder. It pathologizes
> > what
> > is, in fact, a virtue. Perfectionism is a virtue.
> > It's
> > creative; it's procreative. It conserves; it
> > preserves. It ensures; it endures. It protects.
> It's
> > all that and more. It is a learned, guiding
> pursuit.
> > Perfectionism reigns supreme in Science, Art and
> > Craft. It's been around since, at least, gee whiz,
> > the
> > beginning of civilization.
> >
> >
> > >I'm glad to say that I'm one of
> > > those he denigrates as
> > > misguided for thinking that it's nice to see the
> > > hand or file of an artisan
> > > in his work.
> >
> >
> > As Curt Goodrich stated, "...a trained eye can see
> > file use even with the lack of file marks."
> >
> >
> > > His comment that "File marks are marks of
> laziness
> > > and a measure of the
> > > maker's craftsmanship integrity" is an insult to
> > > generations of builders.
> >
> >
> > And a deserved insult it is, Bruce. A comment I
> made
> > with some other comments of mine that you called
> "a
> > lot of pompous crap."
> >
> >
> > Here's some REAL pomposity from David Cooper:
> >
> >
> > "Hi Dennis(Young),
> > Thanks for your remarks about understanding the
> > context and historical evolution of craftsmanship.
> I
> > think you are correct in your insight that we
> live
> > in
> > a time that allows, and sometimes even demands, a
> > higher level of finish from craftsmen than was
> > possible in earlier times."
> >
> >
> > And here's the original pomposity from Dennis
> Young
> > that Cooper and you, Robbins, agreed with:
> >
> >
> > "...You are talking about a different era of
> bicycle
> > making when those Masis had the remnants of file
> > work
> > on them. People had a different mind about what
> > they
> > were doing then, and the expectations of the
> > customers
> > were different as well. Not that I would suggest
> it,
> > but thinking otherwise suggests a lack of
> > understanding of bicycle history, and aesthetics
> > evolution."
> >
> >
> > Young and Cooper, with their stock phrasings, are
> > swimming in the clouds. Looky here, for how long
> > have
> > people, from all cultures and continents, for the
> > past
> > hundreds and thousands of years, been makin'
> things?
> > Some old stuff is in museum buildings, some old
> > stuff
> > is in homes; some old stuff is the buildings and
> the
> > homes. The stuff's everywhere, inside and out. How
> > 'bout just the last century or half-century, in
> > Europe
> > and the U.S.? A sense of quality and checkin' for
> > flaws is instinctual. Let's take a very, very
> brief
> > tour of things made: If we all went into a shop
> and
> > I
> > saw a box, a thing to hold things, and I liked it
> > because of the material or the design or whatever,
> > I'd
> > say "I like this, and you see this, this and this,
> > some may consider them flaws but they don't bother
> > me,
> > and besides, they're away from the good parts."
> > (It's
> > a $50 box.) But if the lid came down uneven, it'd
> be
> > a
> > problem, and I'd have to decide if I could fix it
> or
> > not. My sister made a little clay rocker chair
> many
> > years ago. In one sense it looks hand-made by a
> > child,
> > flaws and all, but in another sense, because it
> has
> > a
> > sort of haunting character about it, it looks as
> if
> > it
> > coulda been make intentionally that way, like by
> > Georgia O'Keefe maybe. I made a decorative box
> with
> > two drawers 30 years ago that hangs on my parent's
> > wall; it's not perfect(it's pretty good though!),
> > but
> > it's very charming. The Brookly Bridge is very
> > charming too, but it's also a perfect work of art.
> > If
> > my tailor makes me a suit with a too-tight
> armhole,
> > or
> > even just a noticeably crooked seam elsewhere: not
> > charming. A panel on an automobile a bit off?: not
> > charming. Dentists are craftspeople.
> >
> > "Hey Doc, it's been a few weeks and that filling
> > feels
> > a bit rough against my tongue."
> >
> > "Joe, let me show you my rug with the knot that
> > looks
> > like a flaw."
> >
> > "Huh?"
> >
> > "OK, let me try this Joe, this is a story about
> > Wabi-Sabi..."
> >
> > "Huh? My tooth..."
> >
> > The dental assistant whispers, "Now Joe, who are
> you
> > to judge the Doctor? Tsk. Tsk. Tsk."
> >
> > "Now Joe, You don't know it yet, but I've given
> you
> > the gift of contemplation. Live and love. Life is
> > short. That's a good man. Sayonara and Ta Ta..."
> >
> >
> > OK now, let's go back to an awareness of things
> > made,
> > throughout history, throughout the last century,
> > throughout the last half-century, a historical
> > awareness of the transactions between buyers and
> > sellers of things made, transactions guided by an
> > eye
> > for quality by the buyer, and hopefully, by the
> > seller. Against this whole backdrop of the history
> > of
> > industrial arts, especially the last half-century,
> > somehow makers of bicycle frames in the 60s, 70s,
> > even
> > the 80s, had been kept in the dark about the way
> > things ought to be made? During the three decades
> in
> > the century in which we listees have lived shoddy
> > workmanship on relatively expensive bicycle frames
> > is
> > to be excused? There is no excuse. I'm not at all
> > applying perfectionist custom-framebuider
> standards
> > to
> > these frames. All of these frames I'm thinking of,
> > certainly those mentioned in this thread and many
> > other makes, could have been made so much better
> > with
> > just a little extra effort. The maker's chose not
> > to.
> > These maker's claims only weakly carried through
> to
> > the frames made. They rapped "Old-World
> > craftsmanship
> > and tradition" and "Made as perfect as possible
> > under
> > the exacting eye of the Maestro" and other pompous
> > "Maestro" crap like that and yet on too many of
> > these
> > frames there's little evidence of a "Maestro";
> > there's
> > little evidence of mastery of metalwork. THE ERA
> OF
> > FLIM-FLAMMERY. There's your historical context. I
> > speak from solid ground, from experience, not from
> > castles in the clouds, not from speculation. Is
> THE
> > ERA over? Probably not. You can always glom onto
> the
> > culture of a frame's origin of manufacture, slice
> it
> > and dice it, subvert it and pervert it, and these
> > days, sneak a nice eastern philosophy or two in,
> > work
> > yer blather up to a lather.
> >
> >
> > >...In my opinion, Joe Starck's work is sterile
> > > and soul-less
> >
> >
> > In a sense, there really isn't anything completely
> > called "Joe Starck's work." But I'll touch on it a
> > bit; I'll say a few words about was is my "work."
> >
> > I did 20 years total of framebuilding work for
> > Trek('79-'82), Masi('84-'90), Dave Moulton(at two
> > different periods in the mid-eighties totaling
> about
> > a
> > year or so), Bill Holland('91-'98), and my last
> four
> > years as a framebuilder making
> Rivendells('98-'02),
> > as
> > well as some Hollands during these last four
> years.
> > And then there's all the repairs and modifications
> > over these two decades. So Bruce, are you dissing
> me
> > or the companies I worked for? I made some very
> nice
> > lugged and fillet-brazed frames for Holland, as
> well
> > as fillet-brazed tandems with fully internal brake
> > and
> > cable guides, guides that were well planned and
> > executed with nary a rattle and smooth as silk.
> And
> > I'm proud of the Rivendells I made. For Rivendell
> > and
> > Holland, I wasn't at liberty to put the hours into
> a
> > frame necessary to do some of the lug carvings
> > listees
> > have seen from some of the fancier builders. I
> > wasn't
> > giving my time away and neither were my employers.
> > The
> > one ulta-refined Nervex-lugged 753 frame I built
> for
> > Holland; I'm sure he lost money on it. I did some
> > fancy stuff for Rivendell, but often it was, "Put
> an
> > extra $100 or $200 worth into this one." And so
> the
> > frame got what I got, but 9 out of 10 got more
> than
> > I
> > got. I couple I'd like to do over. But with a lug
> > that
> > already begins ultra-fancy, it's a challenge in
> > itself
> > to add to it. Some of the extras on Rivendells I
> > did,
> > for the money, were the best solution; I added
> bits
> > of
> > me to Riv's that resulted in some mighty fine
> > gestalts. Fanciness aside, my work is evident of
> > perfectionism, and I'm proud of it. Of course,
> I've
> > had my fair share of screw-ups, and I've had
> > problems
> > that weren't my fault. I often think it'd be a
> kick
> > to
> > swap screw-up stories with some framebuilders that
> I
> > might be in harmony with. Somethimes a
> framebuilder
> > is
> > judged unfairly by some who've only seen the
> "oops!"
> > Methods I've used in the past I no longer use. I
> > evolved by association and wit and Holland and
> > Rivendell sure as hell got my best. I think my
> whole
> > body of work, the depth and breadth of it, is
> > impressive. I don't feel my work is "sterile and
> > soul-less;" it's alive and as soul-full as can be.
> > This is why: When a perfectionist makes a custom
> > frame, he has to be at full attention; a
> > mis-measurement here or there and he's screwed. Do
> > you
> > know how painful and expensive it is to realize
> > you've
> > made just one error? And so the builder has to be
> > "on"
> > frame after frame after frame. At any stage in the
> > process, especially double and triple-checking the
> > plans, cutting tubes, brazing, inspecting and
> > finishing, my whole being is in a moment without
> > time.
> > Brazing can be a kick sometimes. I've done so much
> > of
> > it that often I can begin a lug, get deep into
> > thought
> > about something, and finish the lug without
> > seemingly
> > having to have used one brain cell during the
> > brazing
> > process. Did I just braze that lug? On to the next
> > lug/thought. When I'm finishing a frame, I'm both
> > working on it and admiring it. I've made frames to
> > the
> > best of my ability, and you know, I didn't do it
> for
> > myself; I did it for the frames. Where is my work
> > now?
> >
> >
> > And when I inspect another builder's work from all
> > angles, preferably in bare metal, when I take it
> all
> > in, if that frame hits a certain mark of
> perfection,
> > I'm moved -- A chill goes up my spine -- That's
> > sorta
> > like one soul saluting another.
> >
> > Joe Starck,
> > masidon, wi
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
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