--- "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com>
wrote:
>
> listees...
> my pithy remarks that appear here, to which
> starck-issimo is replying, were made in a
> private email that we exchanged, so dontchoo
> go lookin' in the archives; they're not there!
> e-RICHIE
> chester, ct
Listees, Richard is posting too fast on me, (most off, a couple on), I can't seem to keep up on the "To's" and the "To and cc's," so maybe I'll go see a movie or something. Joe Starck, masidon, wi
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > too late...
> > you said it.
> > it's "out there"!!!!
>
>
> And now that I re-read my post, I do recall
> thinking,
> as I wrote, of a couple of goofs that did get
> shipped.
> What will God, The Devil, and Albert Eisentraut
> think
> of me now?
> Joe Starck,
> masidon, wi
>
> >
> > -- Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > --- "richardsachs@juno.com"
> <richardsachs@juno.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > snipped:
> > > "Somethimes a framebuilder is judged unfairly
> > > by some who've only seen the "oops!"
> > >
> > >
> > > well i guess that says it all, doesn't it.
> > > your text is very interesting reading, but
> > > at the core of this thread, isn't this (above,
> > > your words) really what the issue is; people
> > > judging other people's work, whether qualified
> > > to do so or not?
> > > e-RICHIE
> > > chester, ct
> > > "there's room on my flaw for you".
> >
> >
> > Richard,
> > You may think I've given you a juicy T-bone to
> chew
> > on, and so enjoy it while you can, but, when I
> wrote
> > the "oops!" I meant screw-ups in the shop that
> > co-workers or customers could be aware of, "oops!"
> > that would either be scrapped or fixed BEFORE it
> > went
> > out the door. And I'll even swear to God, The
> Devil,
> > and Albert Eisentraut again on that count. Find
> > another bone below to chew on.
> > Joe Starck,
> > masidon, wi
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -- Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- brucerobbins <brucerobbins@supanet.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > >...The Joe
> > > > Starcks of this world never seem to get it
> that
> > > > there is no charm in
> > > > perfection. Certainly, one can appreciate his
> > > > pain-staking attention to
> > > > detail and if you're a bit anal about these
> > things
> > > > then that's no doubt what
> > > > will turn you on.
> > >
> > >
> > > Bruce,
> > > "Anal" is not synonomous with "perfection."
> "Anal
> > is
> > > derisive. It connotes a disorder. It
> pathologizes
> > > what
> > > is, in fact, a virtue. Perfectionism is a
> virtue.
> > > It's
> > > creative; it's procreative. It conserves; it
> > > preserves. It ensures; it endures. It protects.
> > It's
> > > all that and more. It is a learned, guiding
> > pursuit.
> > > Perfectionism reigns supreme in Science, Art and
> > > Craft. It's been around since, at least, gee
> whiz,
> > > the
> > > beginning of civilization.
> > >
> > >
> > > >I'm glad to say that I'm one of
> > > > those he denigrates as
> > > > misguided for thinking that it's nice to see
> the
> > > > hand or file of an artisan
> > > > in his work.
> > >
> > >
> > > As Curt Goodrich stated, "...a trained eye can
> see
> > > file use even with the lack of file marks."
> > >
> > >
> > > > His comment that "File marks are marks of
> > laziness
> > > > and a measure of the
> > > > maker's craftsmanship integrity" is an insult
> to
> > > > generations of builders.
> > >
> > >
> > > And a deserved insult it is, Bruce. A comment I
> > made
> > > with some other comments of mine that you called
> > "a
> > > lot of pompous crap."
> > >
> > >
> > > Here's some REAL pomposity from David Cooper:
> > >
> > >
> > > "Hi Dennis(Young),
> > > Thanks for your remarks about understanding the
> > > context and historical evolution of
> craftsmanship.
> > I
> > > think you are correct in your insight that we
> > live
> > > in
> > > a time that allows, and sometimes even demands,
> a
> > > higher level of finish from craftsmen than was
> > > possible in earlier times."
> > >
> > >
> > > And here's the original pomposity from Dennis
> > Young
> > > that Cooper and you, Robbins, agreed with:
> > >
> > >
> > > "...You are talking about a different era of
> > bicycle
> > > making when those Masis had the remnants of file
> > > work
> > > on them. People had a different mind about what
> > > they
> > > were doing then, and the expectations of the
> > > customers
> > > were different as well. Not that I would suggest
> > it,
> > > but thinking otherwise suggests a lack of
> > > understanding of bicycle history, and aesthetics
> > > evolution."
> > >
> > >
> > > Young and Cooper, with their stock phrasings,
> are
> > > swimming in the clouds. Looky here, for how long
> > > have
> > > people, from all cultures and continents, for
> the
> > > past
> > > hundreds and thousands of years, been makin'
> > things?
> > > Some old stuff is in museum buildings, some old
> > > stuff
> > > is in homes; some old stuff is the buildings and
> > the
> > > homes. The stuff's everywhere, inside and out.
> How
> > > 'bout just the last century or half-century, in
> > > Europe
> > > and the U.S.? A sense of quality and checkin'
> for
> > > flaws is instinctual. Let's take a very, very
> > brief
> > > tour of things made: If we all went into a shop
> > and
> > > I
> > > saw a box, a thing to hold things, and I liked
> it
> > > because of the material or the design or
> whatever,
> > > I'd
> > > say "I like this, and you see this, this and
> this,
> > > some may consider them flaws but they don't
> bother
> > > me,
> > > and besides, they're away from the good parts."
> > > (It's
> > > a $50 box.) But if the lid came down uneven,
> it'd
> > be
> > > a
> > > problem, and I'd have to decide if I could fix
> it
> > or
> > > not. My sister made a little clay rocker chair
> > many
> > > years ago. In one sense it looks hand-made by a
> > > child,
> > > flaws and all, but in another sense, because it
> > has
> > > a
> > > sort of haunting character about it, it looks as
> > if
> > > it
> > > coulda been make intentionally that way, like by
> > > Georgia O'Keefe maybe. I made a decorative box
> > with
> > > two drawers 30 years ago that hangs on my
> parent's
> > > wall; it's not perfect(it's pretty good
> though!),
> > > but
> > > it's very charming. The Brookly Bridge is very
> > > charming too, but it's also a perfect work of
> art.
> > > If
> > > my tailor makes me a suit with a too-tight
> > armhole,
> > > or
> > > even just a noticeably crooked seam elsewhere:
> not
> > > charming. A panel on an automobile a bit off?:
> not
> > > charming. Dentists are craftspeople.
> > >
> > > "Hey Doc, it's been a few weeks and that filling
> > > feels
> > > a bit rough against my tongue."
> > >
> > > "Joe, let me show you my rug with the knot that
> > > looks
> > > like a flaw."
> > >
> > > "Huh?"
> > >
> > > "OK, let me try this Joe, this is a story about
> > > Wabi-Sabi..."
> > >
> > > "Huh? My tooth..."
> > >
> > > The dental assistant whispers, "Now Joe, who are
> > you
> > > to judge the Doctor? Tsk. Tsk. Tsk."
> > >
> > > "Now Joe, You don't know it yet, but I've given
> > you
> > > the gift of contemplation. Live and love. Life
> is
> > > short. That's a good man. Sayonara and Ta Ta..."
> > >
> > >
> > > OK now, let's go back to an awareness of things
> > > made,
> > > throughout history, throughout the last century,
> > > throughout the last half-century, a historical
> > > awareness of the transactions between buyers and
> > > sellers of things made, transactions guided by
> an
> > > eye
> > > for quality by the buyer, and hopefully, by the
> > > seller. Against this whole backdrop of the
> history
> > > of
> > > industrial arts, especially the last
> half-century,
> > > somehow makers of bicycle frames in the 60s,
> 70s,
> > > even
> > > the 80s, had been kept in the dark about the way
> > > things ought to be made? During the three
> decades
> > in
> > > the century in which we listees have lived
> shoddy
> > > workmanship on relatively expensive bicycle
> frames
> > > is
> > > to be excused? There is no excuse. I'm not at
> all
> > > applying perfectionist custom-framebuider
> > standards
> > > to
> > > these frames. All of these frames I'm thinking
> of,
> > > certainly those mentioned in this thread and
> many
> > > other makes, could have been made so much better
> > > with
> > > just a little extra effort. The maker's chose
> not
> > > to.
> > > These maker's claims only weakly carried through
> > to
> > > the frames made. They rapped "Old-World
> > > craftsmanship
> > > and tradition" and "Made as perfect as possible
> > > under
> > > the exacting eye of the Maestro" and other
> pompous
> > > "Maestro" crap like that and yet on too many of
> > > these
> > > frames there's little evidence of a "Maestro";
> > > there's
> > > little evidence of mastery of metalwork. THE ERA
> > OF
> > > FLIM-FLAMMERY. There's your historical context.
> I
> > > speak from solid ground, from experience, not
> from
> > > castles in the clouds, not from speculation. Is
> > THE
> > > ERA over? Probably not. You can always glom onto
> > the
> > > culture of a frame's origin of manufacture,
> slice
> > it
> > > and dice it, subvert it and pervert it, and
> these
> > > days, sneak a nice eastern philosophy or two in,
> > > work
> > > yer blather up to a lather.
> > >
> > >
> > > >...In my opinion, Joe Starck's work is sterile
> > > > and soul-less
> > >
> > >
> > > In a sense, there really isn't anything
> completely
> > > called "Joe Starck's work." But I'll touch on it
> a
> > > bit; I'll say a few words about was is my
> "work."
> > >
> > > I did 20 years total of framebuilding work for
> > > Trek('79-'82), Masi('84-'90), Dave Moulton(at
> two
> > > different periods in the mid-eighties totaling
> > about
> > > a
> > > year or so), Bill Holland('91-'98), and my last
> > four
> > > years as a framebuilder making
> > Rivendells('98-'02),
> > > as
> > > well as some Hollands during these last four
> > years.
> > > And then there's all the repairs and
> modifications
> > > over these two decades. So Bruce, are you
> dissing
> > me
> > > or the companies I worked for? I made some very
> > nice
> > > lugged and fillet-brazed frames for Holland, as
> > well
> > > as fillet-brazed tandems with fully internal
> brake
> > > and
> > > cable guides, guides that were well planned and
> > > executed with nary a rattle and smooth as silk.
> > And
> > > I'm proud of the Rivendells I made. For
> Rivendell
> > > and
> > > Holland, I wasn't at liberty to put the hours
> into
> > a
> > > frame necessary to do some of the lug carvings
> > > listees
> > > have seen from some of the fancier builders. I
> > > wasn't
> > > giving my time away and neither were my
> employers.
> > > The
> > > one ulta-refined Nervex-lugged 753 frame I built
> > for
> > > Holland; I'm sure he lost money on it. I did
> some
> > > fancy stuff for Rivendell, but often it was,
> "Put
> > an
> > > extra $100 or $200 worth into this one." And so
> > the
> > > frame got what I got, but 9 out of 10 got more
> > than
> > > I
> > > got. I couple I'd like to do over. But with a
> lug
> > > that
> > > already begins ultra-fancy, it's a challenge in
> > > itself
> > > to add to it. Some of the extras on Rivendells I
> > > did,
> > > for the money, were the best solution; I added
> > bits
> > > of
> > > me to Riv's that resulted in some mighty fine
> > > gestalts. Fanciness aside, my work is evident of
> > > perfectionism, and I'm proud of it. Of course,
> > I've
> > > had my fair share of screw-ups, and I've had
> > > problems
> > > that weren't my fault. I often think it'd be a
> > kick
> > > to
> > > swap screw-up stories with some framebuilders
> that
> > I
> > > might be in harmony with. Somethimes a
> > framebuilder
> > > is
> > > judged unfairly by some who've only seen the
> > "oops!"
> > > Methods I've used in the past I no longer use. I
> > > evolved by association and wit and Holland and
> > > Rivendell sure as hell got my best. I think my
> > whole
> > > body of work, the depth and breadth of it, is
> > > impressive. I don't feel my work is "sterile and
> > > soul-less;" it's alive and as soul-full as can
> be.
> > > This is why: When a perfectionist makes a custom
> > > frame, he has to be at full attention; a
> > > mis-measurement here or there and he's screwed.
> Do
> > > you
> > > know how painful and expensive it is to realize
> > > you've
> > > made just one error? And so the builder has to
> be
> > > "on"
> > > frame after frame after frame. At any stage in
> the
> > > process, especially double and triple-checking
> the
> > > plans, cutting tubes, brazing, inspecting and
> > > finishing, my whole being is in a moment without
> > > time.
> > > Brazing can be a kick sometimes. I've done so
> much
> > > of
> > > it that often I can begin a lug, get deep into
> > > thought
> > > about something, and finish the lug without
> > > seemingly
> > > having to have used one brain cell during the
> > > brazing
> > > process. Did I just braze that lug? On to the
> next
> > > lug/thought. When I'm finishing a frame, I'm
> both
> > > working on it and admiring it. I've made frames
> to
> > > the
> > > best of my ability, and you know, I didn't do it
> > for
> > > myself; I did it for the frames. Where is my
> work
> > > now?
> > >
> > >
> > > And when I inspect another builder's work from
> all
> > > angles, preferably in bare metal, when I take it
> > all
> > > in, if that frame hits a certain mark of
> > perfection,
> > > I'm moved -- A chill goes up my spine -- That's
> > > sorta
> > > like one soul saluting another.
> > >
> > > Joe Starck,
> > > masidon, wi
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
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> > >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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