Re: [CR]1940's lugless Claud Butler models, and thanks

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From: "Michael Francis Butler" <>
References: <>
Subject: Re: [CR]1940's lugless Claud Butler models, and thanks
In-Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:10:51 -0700

Dear Michael, Going through the Claud Butler frame drawings and the closest drawing number that matches your specification is B1011; 73 x 73 angles, 40 5/16" wheelbase, 11" BB height with 27", 17" chainstays CtoC. Close clearances for 27" wheels. These drawings were used as a customer guide to anyone who wanted a bespoke (made to measure special). I reckon you might have a plain tube Super Velo or Allrounder built to drawing B1011. This is a guess lugless welded Claud's are a nightmare to identify. Best wishes Michael Butler Wistow, Huntingdon UK.

On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 07:52:53 -0700 (PDT), "Michael Davies" <> said:
> This is a followup to my earlier request for help
> identifying a lugless model which several list members
> had suggested might be a Holdsworth La Quelda. The
> consensus now seems to be that it's not a La Quelda,
> and is possibly a Claud Butler (this was my
> recollection, too, from memories of the frame from 40
> years ago before it lost its transfers and headbadge).
> If the bike is indeed a Claud, the serial number
> suggests that it might be a 1942 model, hence I've
> been trying to match it up to models in Norm
> Kilgariff's online 1940/41 catalog. The problem is
> that it doesn't exactly match any of the models shown,
> in terms of geometry. As far as I can make out, there
> were three lugless models offered in this catalog, the
> 'Mass Start', the 'Sport Anglais', and possibly the
> 'Continental Classic', (although it's not clear to me
> whether this one was lugless or not). Does anyone know
> if there were other lugless models offered during this
> time.
> The particulars on my model are:
> Seat tube angle 74 degrees
> Head tube angle 74 degrees
> 40.5" wheelbase
> 2" bottom bracket drop
> 19" seat tube length
> 21" top tube length.
> As far as I can see, none of the CB models offered
> match these specs in terms of geometry....mine is a
> much more upright frame, and yet it's fitted out like
> a tourer, with tabs for luggage rack and lamps front
> and rear. Also, it's extremely light.....under 20lbs
> in it's current incarnation, and even with some of the
> older, heavier components shown in the catalog, it's
> hard to imagine it approaching the mid-20's weights
> quoted in the catalog for most of the models. The
> Hyperlite Tourer model came to's about the
> right weight, but it looks like a lugged model.
> I'd also like to extend my thanks to list members,
> particularly Frank Ellingford and Doug Smith, for
> offering their insights and stimulating discussion.
> Also, thanks to Cliff Scheiner for his initial help
> several months ago.
> If anyone is interested, links to pics of the bike
> appear below..
> Regards - Michael Davies
> St Louis, MO
> This is a left side view of the disassembled frame and
> fork.
> This is a rear view of the disassembled frame and
> fork.
> This is a right side view of the disassembled frame
> and fork.
> This is a view of the Chater Lea rear dropouts.
> Dropout spacing is 115mm
> This is a left side view of the bottom bracket shell.
> Visible is the incorrect spindle; the BB shell width
> is 63.5mm and the spindle is from a 68mm BB. Not
> visible is the interior of the BB shell….it’s fully
> enclosed, with no openings to the intersecting tubes.
> An underside view of the bottom bracket. The serial
> number is clearly visible.
> A view of the backside of the front fork. Again, the
> serial number can be seen.
> A view of the front fork dropouts. Dropout spacing is
> 90mm
> A view of the underside of the intersection of the top
> tube, seat tube and seatstays.
> A close-up view of the front part of the frame
> A close-up view of the rear of the frame.